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Do You Agree with Calvin or Wright On the Nature of the Atonement?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Nov 2, 2017.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvin sees it i terms as being PST, as Jesus suffering the very wrath of God directed towards the sins of lost sinners, while Wright sees it as God vindicating Jesus as being the righteousness One of God!
     
    #1 Yeshua1, Nov 2, 2017
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Is it one or a combination of both?... Bother Glen:)
     
    #2 tyndale1946, Nov 2, 2017
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  3. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Jesus, as man & for man, took on himself our sins, & suffered the wrath of God while he hung on the cross -
    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.​
    His saving work was FINISHED when he died, & he was vindicated - owned to be the Son of God, by his resurrection. See Romans 1, quoting Psalm 2.
     
    #3 Covenanter, Nov 2, 2017
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  4. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I'm amazed that you can boil down Wright to "God vindicating Jesus as being the righteousness One of God!" from the 140,000 or so words he's written on the topic (that number, BTW, I just made up but might not be far from wrong.

    Wright continues to insist he believes in penal substitutionary atonement (though, it appears, not the classical version) while insisting that one model of the atonement does not exhaust all its meanings, hence an attraction to Christus Victor, but not at the expense of other explanations.

    My own take is that Wright really wants to keep one foot in classical Reformed theology (not an easy task, given that Anglicism has pretty much rejected Reformed theology, and practically any distinctive theology at all) while keeping one foot in the theology of his own creation, brilliant though it is.
     
    #4 rsr, Nov 2, 2017
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  5. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    In four words: "Jesus paid it all". No further commentary required.

    Beware the wolves dressed like sheep.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
    #5 Bro. James, Nov 3, 2017
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    According to the OP
    Did not Calvin hold that sinful human was completely unable to attain God’s salvation, that it was granted by His pleasure because of the work on the Cross?


    “21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

    Holding to the view of just retribution for sin demands payment in full, who then paid for the sin(s) of Jesus?

    Surly if the wrath of God is upon all sin, and Jesus became sin, then God’s wrath abides upon Jesus until such sins are paid for. Who paid for Jesus?

    This is a foundational flaw with the Wrath of God thinking. God’s wrath is not extinguished until sin is not found. Therefore, again, who paid the penalty for Jesus?
     
    #6 agedman, Nov 3, 2017
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Anyone God transfers into Christ has his or her sin burden removed (the circumcision of Christ) and is made alive together with Christ, and therefore is at one with Christ. Behold the Atonement of Christ!

    No need to sow confusion concerning the obvious.
     
    #7 Van, Nov 3, 2017
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The actual atonement though was PST, and God exalted Jesus afterwards...
     
    #8 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    However Wright ultimate view on the atonement is, and he seems to be all over the place, he really does deny the classical reformed view of Pst, as held and expressed by Calvin and others!
     
    #9 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus as a Man was able to die in the place of sinners, being one who had and knew no sins Himself, and being God meant that His 3 hours of suffering was equivalent to an eternity for sinners who would have to suffer on their own.
     
    #10 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What does PST stand for?
    PST
     
    #11 Van, Nov 3, 2017
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Utterly bogus assertion with no biblical foundation.
     
    #12 Van, Nov 3, 2017
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That is very poorly put but essentially true.

    Christ, the Infinite Man, suffered (separation from God) for a finite time to pay for infinite sin.

    We, finite men, must suffer (separation from God) for an infinite time to pay for infinite sin.
     
    #13 TCassidy, Nov 3, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Except that Jesus suffered for us by taking upon Himself the full due sin penalty, as being God Himself, His 3 hour time was same as an eternity for us to have sufferred!
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Penal substitution atonement view!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which would be the PST viewpoint of the atonement of the Cross...
     
    #16 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, it wouldn't. It would be the biblical viewpoint of Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.
     
    #17 TCassidy, Nov 3, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Which would be what Penal substitution states, correct?
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I have a question, I can see the points of Calvin and Wright but where are the scriptures that back up what both believe and why they came to that conclusion?... Brother Glen:)
     
    #19 tyndale1946, Nov 3, 2017
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvin would have taken it directly from the OT sacrifice system, as pointing towards the sacrifice of Messiah as sin bearer for the sins of His people, and tied divine wrath into the Cross by the many statements regarding the bowl/cup of wrath of God in OT, but where Wright gets his from?
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Nov 3, 2017
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