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Is man restricted to his own Nature?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MB, Dec 1, 2017.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    T. Cassidy wrote;
    I can't think of a more ridiculous theory. When man's will changes with discovery such as when man for the first time hears the gospel. Regardless of whether or not it's in his nature. Man's nature does not govern what he can or can't do. No where in scripture is it ever shown that man cannot come to God. In fact man is invited.
    Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    many will say man cannot come to God unless he is drawn not realizing that all men are drawn Jn 12:32

    Man has already done what is not in His nature. Men can fly. Men can swim under water with out coming up for a breath. In fact men walk on the ceiling in a space craft. To compare man's will to that of a fly is an insult to God's creation. Most of all man can and does learn of new things everyday that he could not do until he learns of them.

    Total depravity is not in man's nature. Depraved yes we are before Salvation, but total depravity does not allow for Conscience. Conscience is that which causes man to become guilty before God. It's what conviction is all about. Once we are saved we have all ready been forgiven and conviction can only happen when we sin after that.
    MB
     
    #1 MB, Dec 1, 2017
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  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I am sorry you didn't understand it. I will try to explain it to you.

    Of course it does. A lost man cannot go to Heaven no matter how badly he wants to. The ONLY way to Heaven is through Christ. Man's fallen nature governs his destination. And until Christ changes that destination, the man is destined for Hell.

    It is shown that lost man WILL NOT come to God.

    Romans 3:11 There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Yes, we all know that. The Gospel call is universal. We have said that over and over and over again. I really don't know why we have to keep repeating it.

    No, they can't. I was a military pilot back in the 1960s. I did not fly. I don't have wings. The plane flew. It had wings. And, in fact, if it stopped flying while still up in the air, I had to get out of the plane. And when I got out, I did not fly. I fell. In free-fall, and prayed my parachute would save my life because I COULDN"T FLY!

    No, they can't. The scuba gear provides breath for them. Without the gear, they drown.

    No, they don't. They are in free-fall. There is no ceiling.

    And it is now obvious you are desperately trying to think up nonsense to try to keep you from having to admit the truth.

    And now you twist what I said into your untruth. I never compared my will to a fly's will. I compared my NATURE to a fly's NATURE and went out of my way to include "simple' and "complex" in that comparison. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a comprehension problem and not a problem with the truth.

    Nobody has said otherwise. But no matter how hard he tries, or how much he learns, he can't walk on the ceiling, and can't fly.

    What part of man's nature, his body, soul, or spirit, do you think is unfallen and able to approach a Holy God on its own merits?

    And the lost man's conscience is seared and defiled, burned, scared, cauterized, no longer functioning.

    1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

    Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

    And a seared and defiled conscience will never cause a lost man to seek a Holy God. The ONLY way that conscience ever be spiritually valuable again is when it is renewed, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience.
     
    #2 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Total depravity is a false doctrine.
     
    #3 Revmitchell, Dec 1, 2017
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  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The sin nature places upon us restrictions, as we are no longer free to do all things, but free to do all things consistent with being a sinner...
     
    #4 Yeshua1, Dec 1, 2017
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    All we need is an example of someone who is regenerated without cooperating to hear the gospel in the first place.

    If regeneration can only follow willingly listening to the gospel then it requires man's choice to listen.
     
    #5 utilyan, Dec 1, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So which part of man is not fallen? His body? His soul? His spirit?
     
    #6 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Denying Total Depravity is a false doctrine.

    [sarcasm] (Wow! What a deep, thoughtful, and meaningful debate!) [/sarcasm]
     
    #7 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Yet lost men are saved everyday. Lost men come to God everyday. Lost men call out to God in fox wholes under fire who don't know God. Thousands have received Christ at Billy Graham meetings all because of the invitation and drawing of Christ. They are not unable

    The same man who said this originally also said there is no God;
    Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
    Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

    Notice this passage does not say that the natural man cannot.

    2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

     
    #8 MB, Dec 1, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, men are restricted to their own natures. This is what "nature" is. It is our assurance that God will act only in accord to His nature. "Nature" in this context is descriptive of us.
     
    #9 JonC, Dec 1, 2017
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  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    John 20

    30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

    Can someone "exegete" and give a plain English meaning to what this verse is saying?

    I must have the wrong impression that John is stating the purpose of his writing his gospel which is that YOU (who does not believe), may believe.

    I must have the wrong impression that if his purpose of the gospel was merely preaching to the choir of a believer there would not at all be a "so that you may believe".
     
    #10 utilyan, Dec 1, 2017
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Please learn to format correctly. And proofread your posts to make sure they are formatted correctly. Click on "More Options" then "Preview."

    Yes. Christ changes their destination.

    Yes. Christ changes their destination.

    Yes. Christ changes their destination.

    Yes. Christ changes their destination.

    They are enabled by Christ.

    What does giving have to do with salvation? Surely you are not suggesting that a person can be saved by deciding to give a lot of money to the ministry?
     
    #11 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then you should be able to show this with scripture only
     
    #12 MB, Dec 1, 2017
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Uh, I did. You ignored it.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.

    Romans 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
     
    #13 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Nothing there saying we are totally depraved. Your so called proof just is not there the words "cannot" and "respond" are just not there, no impairment description, The only thing you have proved is that you are reading in to text what clearly isn't there.
    MB
     
    #14 MB, Dec 1, 2017
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  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, again I ask you, what part of man, body, soul, or spirit, was not ruined by the fall?

    And 1 Corinthians 2:14 makes it very, very clear, "The natural man DOES NOT receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he CAN NOT know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    That's bible. Take it or leave it, but it is God's word.
     
    #15 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    What fall would that be? Surely you don't mean heaven. Satan fell from heaven. A couple of mighty men fell in the book of Daniel. You'll have to be more specific. One guy lost all his hair and it fell to the Ground.
    Did some man fall apart?
    You see there is no fall of man in scripture. I know some say Adam fell but no one seems to know from where he fell. Men use this term all the time. Their claim is that man is a born sinner but being born in sin and being a born sinner are two different things. The first is true the second was made up by Augustine.
    Yes the word does say this but you have over looked what was said just a few sentences before this verse.
    1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    Salvation isn't about the deep things of God. Baby chiristians don't understand the deep things of God. We all start out on milk and gradually we begin to eat the meat. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

    You really need to stop reading all that Calvinist literature and just stick to scripture alone. God's Word never fails.
    MB
     
    #16 MB, Dec 1, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Adam sinned and fell from his place of fellowship with God. That is pretty basic. If you don't know that, or if you deny that, then you are either too ill informed or too heterodox to continue in this discussion.

    Heterodox it is.

    You need to stop the condescending nonsense toward other BB members.
     
    #17 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You can call what I believe heterodox now this is condesending
     
    #18 MB, Dec 1, 2017
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  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, that is an accurate assessment of your idea that mankind is not fallen. It is a denial of the Inspiration of Genesis chapter 3.
     
    #19 TCassidy, Dec 1, 2017
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  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    A worldly-minded person certainly does not receive the things of God's spirit, I've seen people who love money and all religion is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo.

    Just because you don't receive pizza doesn't mean it hasn't been offered to you.

    In other words nothing declared by your bible verse states that man has been totally depraved, or like you said every part of him is ruined by the fall.

    If every part of you was ruined by the fall, then your entire nature as a human would have been destroyed, There would be NOTHING to save.

    God doesn't save MURDER, he doesn't show mercy to RAPE. Something good has to be there WORTH SAVING. You are not a SIN who is pardoned by God.
     
    #20 utilyan, Dec 1, 2017
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