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Featured Does God Require Your Permission to Save You?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018.

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Does God Require Your Permission to Save You?

  1. Of Course! He can't just go around saving people against their will!

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%

  2. Uh. . . He's God. He does as He wishes, and BTW, who would complain about being saved?

    6 vote(s)
    75.0%
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  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Does God need your permission to save you? If so, why?
     
    #1 thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018
  2. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    "Act 9:6 KJV And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

    It appears God had total disrespect for Saul's free-will, as He did for mine when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin. I wonder why Saul didn't refuse to follow the Lord's command? Perhaps he should have told the Lord he did not want to go into the city and he was free to make his own discussions.
     
    #2 Wesley Briggman, Jan 1, 2018
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  3. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Thank God, He ignored my will, because I had no interest in anything to do with Him. He saved me while I was His enemy. That is love. That is grace.
     
    #3 thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018
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  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God does not ask your position to "knock on your door", to evangelize you,
    Rev 3 "Behold I STAND at the door and knock".

    But instead of "blasting the door open", He calls and waits for the person to choose to either open the door ... or not.

    "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jan 1, 2018
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  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Revelation 3 is a letter to a church. It's not an evangelistic plea from poor Jesus standing out in the cold just waiting for someone to be His BFF. It is a chastisement to a church which has become confident in her riches. It's a promise to those who repent of this sin that fellowship will be restored.

    Revelation 3:14–20

    To the Church in Laodicea

    [14] “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

    [15] “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! [16] So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. [17] For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. [18] I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. [19] Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. [20] Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (ESV)
     
    #5 thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The "saved condition" is not one where Christ is "on the outside" separated from you - and knocking ... waiting for you to open the door.

    The Christless - separated from Christ ... "Gospel" is "another Gospel".

    Under the "ONE Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 we have "CHRIST in me the hope of glory" and "no longer I who LIVE but Christ that lives IN me" Gal 2:20.

    As you point out -- Calvinism may indeed have a "Christless gospel" but that is not the right one.
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jan 1, 2018
  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    We can clearly see who the letter is addressed to. This isn't a tough one.

    Can there be a separation between a father and a son? Can a son remain a son and be estranged from his father for a time? I think so.
     
    #7 thatbrian, Jan 2, 2018
  8. Edna Davidsen

    Edna Davidsen New Member

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    No, I don't think He does. There's something odd about a Good who's dependant on how humans feel or react. But it's always worth considering these kinds of questions.
     
    #8 Edna Davidsen, Jan 2, 2018
  9. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Welcome to BB, Edna, and thanks for your reply.

    Indeed, asking questions is how we learn.
     
    #9 thatbrian, Jan 2, 2018
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  10. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    By our limited understanding, there is "something odd about a God" who would create man knowing man would rebel and He would have to die for us. Also "something odd about a God" who would even mess with creating and dealing with man.
     
    #10 Reynolds, Jan 2, 2018
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    no He doesn't need our permission but nonetheless He respects our decision:

    From the very beginning He gave that ability

    - don't eat the fruit - oops.


    HankD
     
    #11 HankD, Jan 2, 2018
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  12. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    That's how we got into the ditch, Hank. It's not how we get out.
     
    #12 thatbrian, Jan 2, 2018
  13. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Edna, thanks for sharing. My statement was intended to be sarcastic. God never needs mans "permission" to do His will. His chosen are drawn to Him by His power.
     
    #13 Wesley Briggman, Jan 2, 2018
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed that is His "sovereign choice" and the Bible shows it

    God does not ask your position to "knock on your door", to evangelize you,
    Rev 3 "Behold I STAND at the door and knock".

    But instead of "blasting the door open", He calls and waits for the person to choose to either open the door ... or not.

    "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

    It is a "whosoever will" system that God has created by supernaturally "drawing ALL mankind" John 12:32 to Himself and thus enabling that choice to accept or reject the gospel instead of being stuck on 'depraved sinful nature always says reject'


    Interesting idea - but the Bible points the other way.
     
    #14 BobRyan, Jan 2, 2018
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    You still haven't learned how to exegete that text, Bob. Context, context, context.
     
    #15 thatbrian, Jan 2, 2018
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but Ezekiel 36, obviously written to the nation of Israel, is butchered by Calvinists and applied to present day people. Context, context, context.
     
    #16 InTheLight, Jan 2, 2018
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    True

    Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

    So No,He doesn't ask our permission but simply commands us to be saved. Obviously a bunch ignore Him.

    HankD
     
    #17 HankD, Jan 2, 2018
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The OWN in there would be the jewish people, as those who were chosen by God to receive Him indeed did do just that!
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Jan 2, 2018
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Can God save a sinner whose will is against getting saved by Him, as ALL of ours wills were before getting saved?
     
    #19 Yeshua1, Jan 2, 2018
  20. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Nope! Only good people who love God, whose deeds are good, and who come to the light so that all men might see how good they truly are, can be saved. Those who chose God before He chose them. Now those are the people God wants in His army.
     
    #20 thatbrian, Jan 2, 2018
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