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Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, Dec 13, 2017.

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  1. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Extreme being how one views His exercise of Sovereignty. God being sovereign does not mean He chooses to control every minute detail in His creation.
     
    #41 Reynolds, Feb 5, 2018
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The part I underlined in the quote by John Calvin is where he says God commands evil to happen. Commands it to happen. That is a step beyond simply controlling it. Or as you Calvinists like to say, this is God's decretive will, not simply his permissive will.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #42 InTheLight, Feb 5, 2018
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I believe you are not understanding the quote correctly...God is in complete control of even the evil acts of evil men...acts2:23
     
    #43 Iconoclast, Feb 5, 2018
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The quote by John Calvin says these evils acts do not occur unless God commands them. I think it is you that does not understand.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #44 InTheLight, Feb 5, 2018
  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Yup.
     
    #45 thatbrian, Feb 6, 2018
  6. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

    If the "Calvinist club" is what ignorant Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians use to bash Calvinists over the head with, I'm sick of it too.
     
    #46 thatbrian, Feb 6, 2018
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I also see Calvin as making God the ultimate source of evil as he denies, on no uncertain terms, a divine permissive will. That said, the Canons of Dort (which most here have accepted as defining "Calvinism" across denominations) also address the issue and denies (again, on no uncertain terms) that God authors evil.

    The reason I source the Canons rather than the Institutes is that (from what I gather on this forum) Calvinists here do not view Calvin as an authority when it comes to their faith, but they do view the five points as expressed at the Synod as descriptive of what they believe.
     
    #47 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
  8. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    The question of why there is evil is a very difficult one to wrestle with. Why and how did beings which were created perfectly, become evil?

    Regarding mankind, I don't think a reasonable person would argue that God knew that what happened in the Garden before He created it. That pushes beyond the definition of "allow", but it also does not get anywhere near, "cause".
     
    #48 thatbrian, Feb 6, 2018
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Another interesting idea is Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and that all things were created for God's own glory. This seems to imply that man was created, in one sense, to fall (as it is through this that God would ultimately be glorified and Christ given a name above every name).

    My argument would be that men were created as men. The command which Adam transgressed was akin to the Law which Israel transgressed. It demonstrated man's own sinfulness. The is not whether Adam was created as a perfect being (he was) but a matter of the will (Adam chose, and men choose, to place their desires - their will - over God's will). I say this because Eve desired the fruit before she ate and Adam was tempted prior to acting on that temptation. In this way, I think it reasonable to consider that the Fall evidenced man's state rather than, or at least just as much as, creating it.
     
    #49 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain this further? I agree that the Fall was somewhere between "allow" and "cause," but I would have to argue that God does indeed know that Man will sin.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
    #50 The Archangel, Feb 6, 2018
  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Calvinists are experts at word games. Reminds me of Bill Clinton and the "definition of is."
     
    #51 Reynolds, Feb 6, 2018
  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Did God create everything that was created?
    Can created Lucifer have the ability to do evil without God creating that ability in him?
    Can created man have the ability to do evil without Sovereign God creating that ability in him?
    God gave Adam a free choice as to whether or not He would sin?
    God will not give man a free choice as to whether or not he will be saved?
     
    #52 Reynolds, Feb 6, 2018
  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    That would mean God created man in a sinful state?
     
    #53 Reynolds, Feb 6, 2018
  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    If God is in "complete control of the evil acts of men," then that logically makes man a mere puppet. "Complete control" would be puppet master.
     
    #54 Reynolds, Feb 6, 2018
  15. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Well, if He's not in complete control of the evil acts of men, then you must--at some point--become an Open Theist.

    Of course, God is in control of even the sin done by men. We see this in Genesis 50 where Joseph tells his brothers: What you intended for evil, God intended for good. The brothers intend evil toward Joseph of their own free will, yet they do exactly as God has intended for them to do. God super-intends the free and sometimes sinful actions of man for His glory and our good.

    The Archangel
     
    #55 The Archangel, Feb 6, 2018
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  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, not at all. We are tempted by our desires. When we give in to our desires over God's will this gives birth to sin.

    Adam was tempted and carried away by His own lust, which once conceived gave birth to sin and brought forth death.

    In other words, Adam sinned in his given nature. He did not fall and then sin, but through his sin death entered the world. Scripture does not present Adam's nature as changing before he sinned (the change afterwards was a knowledge of good and evil).
     
    #56 JonC, Feb 6, 2018
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  17. delizzle

    delizzle Active Member

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    Job?
     
    #57 delizzle, Feb 6, 2018
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ONLY Hyper calvinists, and they would not even be regarded as being real calvinists!
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I have NEVER read anyone who claimed that God was the cause/author of sin, have you?
     
    #59 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I do not know any of the "official" Confessions of reformed faith that tell us that God authored Sin, is there one that does?
     
    #60 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2018
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