1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How is the KJV a Bible translation in any different sense than the NKJV is?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Jun 10, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,960
    Likes Received:
    228
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why would that be a problem? The very name, King James Version, clearly expresses the recognition that it is a "version" of the Word of God. We simply believe that it is a perfectly preserved version in the English language.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    4,650
    Likes Received:
    1,159
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please don't take this as any sort of attack, I was just curious ...

    What exactly do you mean by "perfectly preserved"?

    I know that the existing Greek manuscripts have differences that scholars debate which is closer to the original text.
    Do you believe that the KJV accurately translates the original autographs written by the Apostles and disciples and contains no translation errors carried over from the Greek manuscripts?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think the greater question is not "translation errors" (as translating from one language to another is largely a matter of opinion, especially when dealing with a language no longer in common usage) but rather transmission issues. What set of rules are used to try to determine the most likely original reading and are those rules unbiased toward any specific manuscript or textform?

    I believe the unbiased examination of the manuscript evidence will show that the Byzantine textform is more likely to represent the original reading due to the much more rational rules regarding transmissional probability.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, He illuminates to us the truths of the bible, regardless if one reads, Kjv/Nkjv/Nas/Esv/Niv et all!
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You could support that it represents more of the originals, but still not 100% of them, but the Critical text and majority texts also can make same claim!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is NO 100 % to the originals translation ever been made, but the truth is that for the scriptures to be the infallible word of god to us, that is not needed...
    The Kjv translators worked off Greek texts that were good, but none should even claim that any greek text used in translation is an exact copy of the original texts themselves!
     
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    11,063
    Likes Received:
    2,436
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That may be true TC but the Lord knows we don't read the Byzantine original like some do, that is why it was translated into the language for the common man English... Is the word of God preserved in every language it was intended?... God said he would!... Since my native tongue is English I see no reason to use any other version than the KJV... Brother Glen:)

    Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he also though was just as involved with the esv/Niv/Csb/Nasb as he was in the KJV!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,960
    Likes Received:
    228
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Thank you for your gracious demeanor.

    What it means to me, personally, is, the Holy Spirit moved human authors to write the original autographs (II Peter 1:21). God moved human scribes to copy the originals (Romans 3:1,2) and I believe He also guided men to make copies of the copies (apographs) so that each generation would have reliable, accurate copies of God's Word (Psalm 78:5-7). I believe that the KJV is a providentially preserved translation of those perfectly preserved copies.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which still had errors and mistakes from the copiers contained within it, and which TR text is the right one, which Kjv?
     
  11. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,960
    Likes Received:
    228
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some did and were set aside (aleph and B, to name a couple, IMHO, of course). The overwhelming majority have agreement.

    Which Greek text and/or English version do you believe qualifies as preserved? Or, do you not believe in the preservation of Scripture?
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Technically, Bob, an "apograph" is the first copy made from the original autograph. The copies of copies are just copies. :)

    I have no problem believing in "perfect preservation" as long as you are using the word "perfect" to mean "complete, mature, nothing lacking necessary to the whole." But I do have a problem if you mean "absolute letter perfect" because we know of no manuscript or text that is letter perfect. All contain transmissional errors and different types of typographical errors (and, yes, I am aware of the incongruity of using the word "typographical" when referring to a "manuscript). And even if there was one perfect manuscript (such as Pickering claims for Family 35) how would we know, as we have no autograph to compare it to? :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I believe that God preserved to us enough of the original books in the TR/Bzt/Majority/Critical text to have an English translation made of any of them would qualify as being the English word of the lord to us today!
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But not letter perfect agreement. Even among the Majority/Byzantine textform there are variants.

    I believe all Greek textforms and all conservative English translations are preserved simply because we have them available to us today. I prefer the Byzantine textform and English bibles translated from that text form (KJV, NKJV, WEB, EMTV, etc.) based on my understanding of transmissional probability.

    I have to believe in preservation of Scripture for we still have the scriptures, and when compared to the most ancient manuscripts and quotes by Patristics we can discern a consistancy.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The TR/Majority/Bzt/Critical greek texts are all perfect in how you define the term to enable us to have English word of the lord translated to us for today.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Greek orthodox Study bible only translation based upon Bzt, correct?
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This "perfectly preserved" business has got to go.

    Pastor Bob, I know you probably don't believe in Confessions of Faith as such, but I think in your mind your stance on this issue is one of your key non-biblical platforms.

    You have "faith" that the KJV is preserved perfectly so that it is singular in all translations ever made --though you don't know any of the languages it has been translated into. Hence, that position of yours is a false faith.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which are Alexandrian and not Byzantine.
    Are you sure about that?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. The quotes from the Patristics are consistent with the early Manuscripts. Everyone with greater than a 4th grade education knows that.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mr. Condescension, please furnish proof --not merely assertion and arrogance.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...