How do Theistic Evolutionists Handle the Cambrian Explosion?

[Yeshua1]

AS there was a period of time when thousands of new species, fully formed, exploded unto the scene, without any transistionary life forms before them?

 

[Deacon]

Gosh Yesh, 21 posts in the last hour, gotta stop to think once in a while!


This was drawn from a very old post of mine

Theistic evolution (TE) is most simply portrayed as a fully wound clock: simplistically speaking, a theistic evolutionist believes that it would be inappropriate for God, (who is the consummate designer), to intervene periodically to adjust the clock.

Since your understanding of TE is quite antiquated and your ideas unchangeable, here are two dated understandings of theistic evolution.

Theistic evolution (general): God created the first simple life forms and governed random mutations and natural selection as secondary causes (the evolution of life may be closely interwoven with specific creative acts of God).

The Fully Gifted Creation: (Howard Van Till) God has created a universe which depends continually upon God, but which has been endowed with the ability to accomplish what God wants it to accomplish without any "corrections" or "interventions."​

The theology of theistic evolution magnifies the attributes of God’s immanence and providential wisdom (foresight).

So to simply answer your question, a theistic evolutionist believes God designed the ages of earths history to fulfil his purposes... they don't really have to say how God did it.

Rob

 

[Gold Dragon]

AS there was a period of time when thousands of new species, fully formed, exploded unto the scene, without any transistionary life forms before them?

Maybe this will help.

Does the Cambrian Explosion pose a challenge to evolution?

...
The Cambrian Explosion is often posed as a challenge for evolution because the sudden burst of change in the fossil record appears to be inconsistent with the more typical gradual pace of evolutionary change. However, although different in certain ways, there are other times of very rapid evolutionary change recorded in the fossil record — often following times of major extinction. The Cambrian Explosion does present a number of challenging and important questions because it represents the time during which the main branches of the animal tree of life became established. It does not create a challenge to the fundamental correctness of the central thesis of evolution, the descent of all living species from a common ancestor. This important period in the history of life extended over millions of years, plenty of time for the evolution of these new body plans (phyla) to occur. Furthermore, the fossil record provides numerous examples of organisms that appear transitional between living phyla and their common ancestors. The ongoing research about the Cambrian period is an exciting opportunity to advance our understanding of how evolutionary processes work, and the environmental factors shaping them.

...

The sudden change of the Cambrian Era was, in relative terms, not too sudden for the process of evolution. The changes during the Cambrian Era did not occur over decades, centuries, or even thousands of years; they occurred over millions of years—plenty of time for evolutionary change. However, for millions of years beforehand, body plans of animals had remained relatively constant. Not until this time period did a significant change occur.

 

[Yeshua1]

Maybe this will help.

Does the Cambrian Explosion pose a challenge to evolution?

That reads like someone who had bought into evolution as his religion, so he will explain it away as best he can!

 

[Gold Dragon]

That reads like someone who had bought into evolution as his religion, so he will explain it away as best he can!

This is the About Us section of biologos which is pretty much in line with my views. The Cambrian Explosion is not something that poses as a problem to evolution or Theistic evolution. It helps if you understand what the Cambrian Explosion and evolution actually are about and not what YEC websites tell you they are about.

About Us

Our Mission
BioLogos invites the church and the world to see the harmony between science and biblical faith as we present an evolutionary understanding of God’s creation.

Core Commitments

• We embrace the historical Christian faith, upholding the authority and inspiration of the Bible.
• We affirm evolutionary creation, recognizing God as Creator of all life over billions of years.
• We seek truth, ever learning as we study the natural world and the Bible.
• We strive for humility and gracious dialogue with those who hold other views.
• We aim for excellence in all areas, from science to education to business practices.

What We Believe

1. We believe the Bible is the inspired and authoritative word of God. By the Holy Spirit it is the “living and active” means through which God speaks to the church today, bearing witness to God’s Son, Jesus, as the divine Logos, or Word of God.
2. We believe that God also reveals himself in and through the natural world he created, which displays his glory, eternal power, and divine nature. Properly interpreted, Scripture and nature are complementary and faithful witnesses to their common Author.
3. We believe that all people have sinned against God and are in need of salvation.
4. We believe in the historical incarnation of Jesus Christ as fully God and fully man. We believe in the historical death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, by which we are saved and reconciled to God.
5. We believe that God is directly involved in the lives of people today through acts of redemption, personal transformation, and answers to prayer.
6. We believe that God typically sustains the world using faithful, consistent processes that humans describe as "natural laws." Yet we also affirm that God works outside of natural law in supernatural events, including the miracles described in Scripture. In both natural and supernatural ways, God continues to be directly involved in creation and in human history.
7. We believe that the methods of science are an important and reliable means to investigate and describe the world God has made. In this, we stand with a long tradition of Christians for whom Christian faith and science are mutually hospitable. Therefore, we reject ideologies such as Materialism and Scientism that claim science is the sole source of knowledge and truth, that science has debunked God and religion, or that the physical world constitutes the whole of reality.
8. We believe that God created the universe, the earth, and all life over billions of years. God continues to sustain the existence and functioning of the natural world, and the cosmos continues to declare the glory of God. Therefore, we reject ideologies such as Deism that claim the universe is self-sustaining, that God is no longer active in the natural world, or that God is not active in human history.
9. We believe that the diversity and interrelation of all life on earth are best explained by the God-ordained process of evolution with common descent. Thus, evolution is not in opposition to God, but a means by which God providentially achieves his purposes. Therefore, we reject ideologies that claim that evolution is a purposeless process or that evolution replaces God.
10. We believe that God created humans in biological continuity with all life on earth, but also as spiritual beings. God established a unique relationship with humanity by endowing us with his image and calling us to an elevated position within the created order.
11. We believe that conversations among Christians about controversial issues of science and faith can and must be conducted with humility, grace, honesty, and compassion as a visible sign of the Spirit’s presence in Christ’s body, the Church.

 

[Gold Dragon]

If anyone is interested in learning more about the Cambrian Explosion, the Royal Ontario Museum has a great site with pictures.

The Cambrian Explosion - Origin of Animals and the Cambrian Explosion - Science - The Burgess Shale

The "Cambrian Explosion" refers to the sudden appearance in the fossil record of complex animals with mineralized skeletal remains. It may represent the most important evolutionary event in the history of life on Earth.

The beginning of the explosion is generally placed about 542 million years ago, during the Cambrian Period at the start of the Palaeozoic Era (the same time the Ediacarans disappear from the fossil record). While the explosion was rapid in geological terms, it took place over millions of years - the Burgess Shale, at 505 million years old, records the tail end of the event. The explosion is particularly remarkable because all major animal body plans (each more or less corresponding to a distinctive Phylum - Mollusca and Chordata, for example) appeared during this time, changing the biosphere forever.

The most significant fossil site of the Cambrian period is the Burgess Shale in British Columbia.
The Fossils - The Burgess Shale - Science - The Burgess Shale


The University of California Museum of Paleontology at Berkeley also has a good site.
The Cambrian Period
Burgess Shale

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Evolutionists can always come up with an unproven hypothesis in presenting the evidence to answer any challenges to the evolution theory. That is not real science when it cannot be observed nor proven. A hypothesis has to be proven or disproven. You do not build on top of it with another hypothesis as if by doing so, must make the former hypothesis true, because that is called spinning a fairytale.

You either believe in that false science which cannot be observed nor proven or you believe Jesus's warnings about the global flood & Sodom & Gomorrah as real life events where God had judged sinners in the world for believers to heed in order to be ready for when the Bridegroom comes, because afterwards, a fiery judgment is coming on the earth.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Evolutionists can always come up with an unproven hypothesis in presenting the evidence to answer any challenges to the evolution theory. That is not real science when it cannot be observed nor proven. A hypothesis has to be proven or disproven. You do not build on top of it with another hypothesis as if by doing so, must make the former hypothesis true, because that is called spinning a fairytale.

You either believe in that false science which cannot be observed nor proven or you believe Jesus's warnings about the global flood & Sodom & Gomorrah as real life events where God had judged sinners in the world for believers to heed in order to be ready for when the Bridegroom comes, because afterwards, a fiery judgment is coming on the earth.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Theistic evolution is basically the attempt to have the "scientific facts" of evolution to trump the viewpoint of scripture in concerning origins

And the fossil records themsevs do not suppor ttheir case!

 

[HopefulNChrist]

Theistic evolution is basically the attempt to have the "scientific facts" of evolution to trump the viewpoint of scripture in concerning origins

And the fossil records themsevs do not suppor ttheir case!

More like..."Theistic evolution is basically the attempt to have the "scientific assumptions" of evolution to trump the viewpoint of scripture in concerning origins"

I agree that the fossil records do not support their case; but they know how to present the fossil records ( with omissions as if they are not finding any fossilized bones of marine life and animal life of today with fossilized dinosaurs ) as "evidence" to favor that false science.

 

[Yeshua1]

More like..."Theistic evolution is basically the attempt to have the "scientific assumptions" of evolution to trump the viewpoint of scripture in concerning origins"

I agree that the fossil records do not support their case; but they know how to present the fossil records ( with omissions as if they are not finding any fossilized bones of marine life and animal life of today with fossilized dinosaurs ) as "evidence" to favor that false science.

the thing is that both creationists and evolutionists see and use the same proofs, but we see thru lens of scriptures, and they thru the one of science!

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

This is the About Us section of biologos which is pretty much in line with my views. The Cambrian Explosion is not something that poses as a problem to evolution or Theistic evolution. It helps if you understand what the Cambrian Explosion and evolution actually are about and not what YEC websites tell you they are about.

I appreciate the call for gracious dialog and consider it more of a biblical imperative, though one I do not always live up to. Here are a few of my thoughts on the issue more generally.

It seems to me that macroevolutionary theories in general overlook the real problem involved, namely, how to add to the DNA programming to achieve more complexity, more advanced features in an entity. Such steps would require a highly skilled programmer fluent in the programming language. It is unreasonable to think that any outward natural means could ever consistently suffice. It is similar to the problem of creating life in the first place, though this would first require the invention of the language, then bringing it all together to get things started. Intelligent design is inherent in every aspect.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

the thing is that both creationists and evolutionists see and use the same proofs, but we see thru lens of scriptures, and they thru the one of science!

Real science can be observed and proven. That is why macroevolution which is really what the evolution theory is about, is a false science, because it cannot be observed nor proven.

 

[Deacon]

Real science can be observed and proven. That is why macroevolution which is really what the evolution theory is about, is a false science, because it cannot be observed nor proven.

That’s not exactly true.
You see, you can’t prove a historical fact, yet by a preponderance of evidence, you can infer its truth.

We can prove bits and pieces of evolutionary theory.

That how things like the modern flu vaccines are developed.​

Some hypothesis are soundly upheld, other are rather weak.

Rob

​

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

That’s not exactly true. You see, you can’t prove a historical fact, yet by a preponderance of evidence, you can infer its truth.
We can prove bits and pieces of evolutionary theory.That how things like the modern flu vaccines are developed. Some hypothesis are soundly upheld, other are rather weak.
Rob

While his comment did not fully acknowledge historical methods, the gist of it was squarely aimed at macroevolution. This is where the argument lies, yet what you did not seem to really address, or else your response was too opaque to be helpful.

Did you mean that a flu virus will morph into something that is no longer a virus? Did you mean that the flu vaccine will morph into the perfect preventative form without intelligent input? Did you mean that scientists can now predict what changes will occur in a flu virus and thus be ready with the perfect vaccine ahead of time?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

That’s not exactly true.
You see, you can’t prove a historical fact, yet by a preponderance of evidence, you can infer its truth.

We can prove bits and pieces of evolutionary theory.

That how things like the modern flu vaccines are developed.​

Some hypothesis are soundly upheld, other are rather weak.

Rob

I can infer the "truth" about the de-evolution theory by the 2nd law of Thermodynamics than you can for macroevolution, but that is a mocking sarcasm against the "preponderance of evidence" reasoning for the evolution theory. Do men act like apes around females? Do not many witnesses, both men and women, will attest to men behaving like Neanderthals? Do law enforcements testify to men acting like Cro-Magnum men when subduing females against their will for mating? One can observe and prove the de-evolution theory quite well by such a preponderance of evidence and yet we know it is not true, right?

Science cannot prove the age of anything by their dating method when it goes past known human history since they are errant dating results as proven by history and even in the present day; example; a living mollusk is carbon dated as 2,300 years old "dead". So how can any one take stock in their dating methods past human history? No self respecting scientists can.

And when the errant dating methods does not meet their evolutionary time table or find a fossil out of place as found with fossils in according to their geographical evolutionary time table, they conveniently place it in according to the evolutionary time chart.

Evidence of this is how fossilized whale bones and other fossilized marine life were found on the top of the Andes Mountains buried "TOGETHER" with fossilized land animal bones like the extinct Gibbon. The "scientists" testify that they can just bend over and pick them right up, but to counter them being buried together, they spun the tale in presenting the evidence in according to the evolutionary time table by saying that the mountains rose suddenly from the sea, trapping marine life by doing so, and yet offer no explanation for the fossilized land animal bones that were found buried together with the fossilized marine life.

WHALE FOSSILS HIGH IN ANDES SHOW HOW MOUNTAINS ROSE FROM SEA

The scientific fact about the reservoir effect where marine life will absorb carbon 14 at a lower rate than land animals seems to be purposefully overlooked in favor of presenting these preponderance of evidence. That means they would get a different dating result by those fossilized bones on that mountaintop buried together. See the evidence of the Biblical global flood yet?

They are now changing the time table from when they said that birds evolved from dinosaurs to now.. dinosaurs had evolved from birds. Would birds in flight receive a higher absorption of carbon 14 than land animals? In any event, what they had said formerly as being a fact or true, they are now changing their "facts" or the "presentation" of the evidence but still only within the parameters of the evolution theory.

When our government gives grants to those that try to prove the evolution theory, you can suspect any proposals for grants to be geared towards that effect when their livelihood is at stake.

Now if that false science is not circumspect enough, Jesus's words testify to Noah's flood as a real time event as a warning to believers to be ready or else because Peter warned of a fiery judgment was coming in 2 Peter 3 rd chapter also in relation to Noah's flood.

Jesus validated the first marriage. He validated the reason behind the creation of the sabbath day. He warned believers in regards to how God has judged the world by the flood in Noah's days and judged the cities of Sodom & Gomorrah of that coming judgment of destruction that will occur after His appearing for why they are to be ready & willing to go or else.

No genetic information has ever been observed as being added to a living organism. It will never happen. The Law of Biogenesis sees to that as life cannot come from nothing; life comes from similar life, but evolutionists keeps glossing over that law because they coined the term microevolution from that law to make macroevolution "look" plausible. It is a deception.

So you either believe Jesus's words or you believe the ever changing words of fallible men by their fallible devices for what that false science that is the evolution theory is all about; the world withholding the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

That’s not exactly true.
You see, you can’t prove a historical fact, yet by a preponderance of evidence, you can infer its truth.

We can prove bits and pieces of evolutionary theory.

That how things like the modern flu vaccines are developed.​

Some hypothesis are soundly upheld, other are rather weak.

Rob

​

Except that evolutionary theory cabbot be proven by fossil records, nor by any evidence that any species has ever been changed in history! And the dating assumedwould be wrong if one holds to a consisyent view in regards to Genesis!

 

[atpollard]

How do Theistic Evolutionists Handle the Cambrian Explosion?
I recommend "with gloves" since most Cambrian life is wet and slimy.

(always glad to be helpful)

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

How do Theistic Evolutionists Handle the Cambrian Explosion?
I recommend "with gloves" since most Cambrian life is wet and slimy.

(always glad to be helpful)

Right. Sure. Very helpful. You didn't even say what kind of gloves.

 

[HopefulNChrist]

It all boils down to either believing scripture and thus Jesus's own words validating scripture or you believe man whom seem to be changing their minds constantly about the "facts" of the evolution theory.

John 10:35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life...… 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[HopefulNChrist]

What happens when someone claims to be telling you a true story, citing certain evidence as facts, but then when countering evidence to the contrary, they modify the "true story"? That is called back-peddling which is the same thing as covering for a lie earlier stated.

The theoretical field of science that is the evolution theory only exists in the realm of the imagination; always has been and always will be because it can never be observed nor proven.

Congress will never pass the Mutant Registration Act nor will there be any facility to add genetic information to the human dna to macro evolve the person that will still be able to reproduce after his alteration to continue as that new species. .