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How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 1689Dave, Nov 20, 2018.

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  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

    But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

    Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.
     
    #1 1689Dave, Nov 20, 2018
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  2. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Problem with all your descriptions above of course as a Calvinist you put it down that God puts the believing in the person but going through the scriptures we see a different story. One verse for example Numb 14:11 puts the blame of not believing upon man.

    And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? Num 14:11

    If God puts or implants all the believing aspect into man why would God ask how long until they'll believe? The answer would be clear....as long as God waits to put believing in them. And the verse above says God got provoked. Why would God be upset with something not found in man that he would have to put in him in the first place?

    Doesn't this indicate that man ultimately makes the decision to believe or not believe, act on his word and does not act on his word? I will say this though God does give much encouragement to believe by signs and wonders and other things but such doesn't mean that all the believing is just implanted by God.
     
    #2 Rockson, Nov 21, 2018
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  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    In scripture, when God asks a question He is not seeking information. He already knows everything. He asked the question to move Moses to a deeper understanding of Himself and His relationship with Moses and others.

    Just because God knows everything before it happens, doesn't mean He isn't moved to an emotional response when it happens.
     
    #3 canadyjd, Nov 21, 2018
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before faith can exist.
     
    #4 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
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  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Nothing about this post is true. Faith comes by hearing the gospel (Romans 10:17). It is the gospel that has the power to save. (Romans 1:16)
     
    #5 Revmitchell, Nov 21, 2018
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  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But you cannot hear unless you are born again.
    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
     
    #6 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
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  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That scripture doesn't say that.

    Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (ESV)

    Sad that you would misuse scripture in such an extreme way.
     
    #7 Revmitchell, Nov 21, 2018
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  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Either way faithfulness begins with the Holy Spirit, not with the flesh.
     
    #8 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
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  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Faithfulness and saving faith are two completely different things.
     
    #9 Revmitchell, Nov 21, 2018
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  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The both start at the same place.
     
    #10 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Working hard to twist scripture again I see.
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Nov 21, 2018
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  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Both Arminians and Calvinists are saved the exact same way. The Calvinist believes the gospel when he or she hears it. And the Arminian believes the gospel when he or she hears it. The Calvinist's first step of faith is to repent. The Arminian's first step of faith is to choose to believe, the basic form of repentance. But both act out in some way because they believe. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.
     
    #12 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
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  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    You keep on saying this so it must be true....
     
    #13 InTheLight, Nov 21, 2018
  14. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:31

    I see. So love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness are equally impossible to exhibit without the Spirit as well.

    Like this, for example:
    Patience is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before patience can exist.
     
    #14 InTheLight, Nov 21, 2018
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (Galatians 5:22) (NET)
     
    #15 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Faith comes from hearing the word does it not? If so, it does not come from you.
     
    #16 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
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  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Changing the argument again, I see.

    I don't know why I engage with you.
     
    #17 InTheLight, Nov 21, 2018
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Paul says:

    “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21) (KJV 1900)

    Then he says:

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)

    Can you find anything in the flesh that would want to part with the sins it loves and cherishes more than God?
     
    #18 1689Dave, Nov 21, 2018
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  19. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    I get that but I'm not going to go down the road to talk about that right now. The fact is God was grieved these people were not believing. Why would he be grieved if the believing capacity was totally and absolutely his place to impart?

    So the OP puts it out as one must believe before they will believe in other words God must put the believing in first. If that be the case why was God grieved in Numb 14:11?
     
    #19 Rockson, Nov 21, 2018
  20. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Could you please change the argument again?
    Maybe ask an open-ended question not related to your original post?
     
    #20 InTheLight, Nov 21, 2018
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