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Featured Does the Bible teach Spiritual Death?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed, Jul 26, 2020.

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  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Funny. A recent thread on spiritual death just vanished. I thought the topic started a worthwhile discussion and one that can give us insight on the topics of sin and the new birth. The principle of spiritual death is certainly biblical. Paul told the Ephesians, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1). Obviously Paul was referring to physical death because the Ephesians who read his letter were still alive. Paul was making the point that before they came to faith in Christ they were "dead in their trespasses and sins". Paul used similar language in Colossians 2:13. It is interesting that Paul uses the Greek word nekros in both passages. This is not the word for the state of death (thanatos), but the word for a dead body. The illustration it provides is stark. The sinner is alive physically but dead spiritually. This does not mean that the sinner does not have a spiritual nature. Quite the contrary. Every human being has a spiritual nature. The question is to what does that nature pledge its allegiance?

    The thread I cannot seem to find started the discussion in Genesis 3. This chapter recounts the fall of man which was the birth of sin in the human race. From that point on all of humanity has been tainted by sin. We are not born in union with God, we are born at enmity with God. On our own we have no proclivity for the things of God. Luther wrote about this in his Bondage of the Will. When we are born we are literally dead men walking. We are in a state of spiritual death moving, towards physical death, and culminating in eternal death. This assumes we are never rescued from our fatal journey by the grace of God.
     
    #1 Reformed, Jul 26, 2020
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not think that Christians can get around the idea of "spiritual death" as Jesus spoke of men who are spiritually dead.

    I believe it is a fundamental truth of Scripture that we were once dead and in need of a spiritual birth.

    Ephesians 2 comes to mind.

    I agree that the lost having a spiritual nature does not constitute "spiritual life". Every human being has a spiritual nature. Good points.
     
    #2 JonC, Jul 26, 2020
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know.

    It was started by @Iconoclast.
    Probably because it was deleted, and only mods and admins have that power.
    Why don't you ask one of them?

    I'm sure there is a record somewhere.
    Perhaps @Dr. Bob, @Salty or @Squire Robertsson knows where it went.;)
     
    #3 Dave G, Jul 26, 2020
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The thread was temporarily removed from public view so that the Administrators could evaluate a submitted report. I removed it because if the member making the report is correct then it does not need to be on the public forum. If it is deemed appropriate then it will be restored and this one can be merged into that dialogue.
     
    #4 JonC, Jul 26, 2020
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.
     
    #5 Dave G, Jul 26, 2020
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    A companion, and I think necessary, term is "spiritual life". Normally when we speak of death we are talking about an absence of life (talking about death is meaningless with a concept of life as life explains death).

    IMHO this is why those who are spiritually dead cannot understand spiritual things. I think this also applies to what Scripture refers to as the "second death" (when Hades and death are cast into the Lake of Fire, cast out from the presence of Life, of Love, of God).

    I believe Christ is this Life.
     
    #6 JonC, Jul 26, 2020
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but I see one "component" missing in those that are spiritually dead...
    The Holy Spirit, by which believers understand the Scriptures ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
     
    #7 Dave G, Jul 26, 2020
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Maybe there is a difference between the work of the Spirit (like in the OT) and the possession "spiritual life" (the indwelling of the Spirit)?
     
    #8 JonC, Jul 26, 2020
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  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am satisfied to just discuss the topic. Thoughts?
     
    #9 Reformed, Jul 26, 2020
  10. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Correction. I meant to say in the first paragraph, "Obviously Paul was not referring to physical death..."
     
    #10 Reformed, Jul 26, 2020
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  11. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    The percentage of spiritually dead people on earth today? 99.99 %
     
    #11 Sai, Jul 27, 2020
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  12. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I would not put a number on it, but scripture does tell us in Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
     
    #12 Reformed, Jul 27, 2020
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Is it possible that "spiritual death" and "spiritual life" can simply be summed up in Ezekiel 36:26-27?

    In that passage God speaks of man having a "heart of stone". Perhaps this is "spiritual death"? God removes this "old heart" and puts a new one, a "new spirit", His Spirit, in them.

    I believe man (natural man) comes into this world "spiritually dead" (with this "stoney heart"). He has a human spirit but one that lacks "spiritual life". What he needs is a "spiritual birth". This is only accomplished through Christ. Jesus IS the Life. As the "Second Adam" He became a "life giving Spirit".

    So I think that "spiritual death" is what we would call a "sin nature" and what the Bible calls the "flesh" or the "a mind set on the flesh which death". In Christ we are made a "new creation", born again (or from above), with a new spirit (God's Spirit in us).

    Perhaps all of these descriptions (stoney heart, mind set on the flesh, of the flesh, ect.) are not different things but different ways of saying the same thing - "spiritually dead".
     
    #13 JonC, Jul 27, 2020
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  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    This is a wonderful topic to discuss and thank you for beginning in Gen 3.

    If God through Christ is restoring what Adam lost, and I think that is the idea if one compares the first chapters of Genesis with the last two chapters of Revelation. Here are two things that Adam did not seem to know before his fall. 1) That he was naked, and 2) good and evil. One has to wonder why he did not know he was naked. He walked with God. He was in his image. Intelligence wise, he must have been the smartest man who ever lived, at least until Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem. God sure mentions restoration and regeneration in his New Testament. All things sure point to a renewal of the original status of God and man. So, why did he not know he was naked?

    One must consider his creation. Soul and body and Spirit. The spiritual nature of Adam was his soul. The physical nature of Adam was his body. The divine nature of Adam was not of himself but was of God. God and Adam were in full accord through the Spirit and communed and had fellowship together. I am reminded just now of the last verse in 2 Cor, which says;

    14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

    Of course he is not speaking to all men but all men in Corinth and by extension, all men everywhere who have the Holy Ghost dwelling in their bodies. Obviously men who did not have the Holy Ghost indwelling them through the new birth could not commune with him. The point is that the logical conclusion is that Adam and God communed through the Spirit that was in him in the garden. He was said to be the son of God. Lk 3:38.

    The question now is, what kind of body did Adam have? I am going to suggest that his body was like the body of the glorified Jesus Christ. It makes sense to me considering that the hope of the Christian today who has the :earnest" of the Spirit while he waits for what scripture calls the "blessed hope' of the Christian, and the final stage of his salvation, the new body that is like unto the glorious body of Jesus Christ. The apostle John, said in 1 Jn 3
    Beloved, "now" are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Paul says this:

    Ph 2:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
    21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    A glorious body is a glorified body. If it is like the body of Jesus then it will shine brighter than the sun.We have him described in several passages of the Scriptures.


    1 Tim 6:16
    Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    In Malachi 3 he is called the Sun of righteousness and when Moses was in his presence, hidden in the cleft of the rock, we have this said;

    2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

    9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

    10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

    11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

    12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

    13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

    No one should think God cannot accomplish his eternal purpose because of the weakness of man or the wickedness of Satan. What he began he can accomplish and it is through the last Adam, the second man that he does it.

    The glorious Adam was clothed with light until he sinned.

    What do you think?
     
    #14 JD731, Jul 27, 2020
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  15. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    In Elijah’s day 7001 saved people on earth.
     
    #15 Sai, Jul 27, 2020
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  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    God usually just counts men. If this is the case the exact number is not known since you have to figure that some of them had well instructed wives and children.
     
    #16 JD731, Jul 27, 2020
  17. Sai

    Sai Well-Known Member

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    The population of Israel at that time was about 4 million people. 99% spiritually dead even counting them.
     
    #17 Sai, Jul 27, 2020
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Now that you mention it, I am not sure it is correct to say that God through Christ is restoring what Adam lost. In a way I would agree, but it seems that God is going far beyond restoration.

    The reason I think this is not only are we restored to fellowship with God but we are made brothers with God (with Christ) which is a more intimate relationship than Adam enjoyed as we have become partakers - having died and been raised in Christ. This seems to go beyond restoration to pre-Fall man. We are also indwelt with and sealed by the Spirit.

    It's like (pardon the illustration) losing your ticket to the nosebleed section of a ballgame (Braves game, of course) and someone not only restoring your entrance but giving you a premium seat. Our redemption and reconciliation brings us to a state that is infinitely greater than Adam enjoyed in the Garden (IMHO).
     
    #18 JonC, Jul 27, 2020
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  19. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you JonC for that.

    Here are two things you should know.

    Lk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    What could be more intimate than having God indwelling you in the person of his Spirit? Do you accept the fact that Jesus Christ is Soul, Body, and Spirit on this very day, 7/272020?

    God uses these 3 words in the NT.

    Regeneration
    Restoration
    Renew
     
    #19 JD731, Jul 27, 2020
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  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    There are 4 major prophetic themes that runs through the OT prophets and into the NT. They are;

    1) the two comings of Jesus Christ, once to suffer and once to reign
    2) The Kingdom
    3) The Remnant
    4) The Day of the Lord

    You quoted a verse that related to theme #3, the remnant. The remnant is always the spiritual Israel , always very small in number, relative to the greater whole whose heart is not right with God. Those who were trying to kill Elijah were Israelites too. The point of bringing up Elijah was to emphasize that God likewise had a remnant of believers in AD 58 when this letter was written.
     
    #20 JD731, Jul 27, 2020
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