Too bad, its a good translation!
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A Text for the Calvinist
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I recognize your right to believe so, but I wouldn't use it for any amount of money in the world.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
"and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)
Note, the wicked have the ability to REFUSE the love of the Truth, the Gospel, which is able to save them!! It is because of their self-willed refusal, that "God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false", in order that they might be condemned to hell. God DOES not do this first, but the sinner CHOOSES to REJECT the Gospel!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
scared of some Truth in it?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
latter
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
sorry to all, I must bow out as it is midnight here in Old England
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No.
Frankly, I'm disgusted with what they've done to the words of my Lord and Saviour,
especially in places like 1 John 5:6-8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Philippians 2:6.
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So you see many sinners seeking after Jesus to be their Savior?
many have profited from using it!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Dave...
Respectfully,
I'm going to respond to you once more on this, and then I will not respond ever again.
You're completely free to use that thing if you wish...
I prefer to stay as far away from it ( and most of the other English translations that have been introduced in the past 130 years ) as possible.
However, I do agree with you that many have profited from using it...
The publishers of it ( Crossway ) have made millions.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I disagree, George.
I clearly see that the Bible, when believed in the passages that declare it, frame the sheep as an elected-unto-salvation group of men from eternity past:
Ephesians 1:3-14.
Ephesians 2:1-10.
John 6:37-68.
Romans 8:28-39.
Romans 9.
I agree with the last half.
Christ's sheep are far more than that...
They are His people and those that He gave Himself for ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ).
When Christ says, "Ye believe not, because ye are not OF my sheep" in John 10:26, it's the equivalent of saying the same thing that Christ did in John 8:43-47...
Because they are not "of" God.
In other words, they are not His and He never knew them ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).
I never had any use for Augustine's writings or John Calvin's, either.
In fact, I've never read Augustine, and I've only ever read the chapter dealing with predestination in Calvin's "Institutes" one time...
After I saw Ephesians 1:4-5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 for myself.
With that in mind,
How would you guess that I came to understand the Bible in this fashion, if it was not through a "bible college" or any other outside influence?
You have the right, of course, to call me a liar...
But I assure you that I had never read anything remotely resembling "TULIP" before I came to understand election for myself during my studies of His word.
From my perspective,
You keep making the charge that everyone who believes and agrees to "unconditional election" and the rest are looking at it through "Calvinistic" glasses, or through "Augustine's lens"...
When I think that the real problem is, is that you don't see it for yourself when you read the word of God;
Therefore, you automatically jump to the conclusion that anyone who does, is getting it from the writings of men and men alone.
No, George...
Some of us really do see it strictly from our studies.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Just give your understanding of the text of Luke you posted. You stated when someone ask if only a few are saved, Jesus then tells them how to get saved, I.e. they must “strive”.
Immediately Jesus gives an example of people knocking on God’s door (the door of salvation? The door to heaven?) and begging to get in. God refuses their efforts and sends them away, saying they are workers of iniquity.
So, you explain it. If Jesus is giving instructions on how to get saved; why isn’t it enough that these people were knocking on God’s door, begging for salvation? Why is God turning people away that are begging for salvation?
peace to you
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
In the first place I see NOWHERE in the entire Bible, where God is seen as "turning people away", from receiving salvation. This teaching is not Biblical. Secondly, the Greek verb, ἀγωνίζομαι, denotes "agonizing", as with Jesus in the garden before Hid death. This is the "striving" that Jesus here speaks of, that the sinner must have real "godly sorrow"; and not merely "seek" (ζητέω, to think about, inquire). The sinner must DO something, like REPENT and BELIEVE, which God does not do for them!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
A real shame that it has to close, as some serious discussion is going on here, on very important issues!
Normally, we have no problem opening a new thread -
but after 100 + posts - there is a lot of posts to read -
In fact if you want to open a new thread now - that would be fine.
If you like - you can call it A test for Calvinists Part II
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Once again, you refuse answer questions about the passage of scripture from Luke you referenced for this OP.
Maybe you could start a new thread with the same passage from Luke. You could title it “Why did God refuse salvation to people begging Him for it?”
edit to add: I notice you are from England. Please accept my thanks for inventing the word “indoobidably”. I’m not sure about the spelling, but is fun to say, especially around the kids. For some reason, it causes them to roll their eyes whenever I use it.
peace to you
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About 400 years ago, a group of believers tried to answer the question, "why do some people reject the gospel, when we and others readily accept it? They fabricated an answer, and it was that all is well, it is God's plan, and therefore our witness need not change.
canadyjd
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