The General redumption is essentual.

[37818]

The General Redemption is Essential.

This is not true. What about infants? or imbiciles? Those beyond the reach of the gospel?

Those are precisely two of the reasons general redemption must be. true.

You are saying Christ's blood does not atone for sin. A very dangerous belief.

I never said any such thing.

Within the general redemption is where the particular redemption resides.

Without the general redemption being true, one cannot not know for sure that one is saved in the particular redemption. All the New Testament documents handed down to us, were not directly written to us, but to our first century believers, by which we can only be a part of the particular redemption by it being part of the general redemption.

 

[utilyan]

I liked it better when there were just ONE word for things rather than shoving adjectives/adverbs to split words into differ meaning when it did not fit a Calvinists agenda.

 

[AustinC]

Please, very clearly and succinctly, define General Redemption and Particular Redemption. We need these definitions to have any productive discussion. There is no succinct definitions via an internet browser search. At best there is a generic write up on redemption.
Redemption - The Gospel Coalition

 

[37818]

Please, very clearly and succinctly, define General Redemption and Particular Redemption. We need these definitions to have any productive discussion. There is no succinct definitions via an internet browser search. At best there is a generic write up on redemption.
Redemption - The Gospel Coalition

The general redemption 1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."
Particular redemption John 10:15, ". . . As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

The general redemption 1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."
Particular redemption John 10:15, ". . . As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ."

These are two verses, but not definitions.
Please define both so that there is a clear definition we can discuss.

 

[37818]

These are two verses, but not definitions.
Please define both so that there is a clear definition we can discuss.

What I understand. General redemption is that Christ paid the sin for everyone. The particular redemption is how Christ secured the salvation of those who are actually saved.

 

[AustinC]

What I understand. General redemption is that Christ paid the sin for everyone. The particular redemption is how Christ secured the salvation of those who are actually saved.

Please provide a more precise definition.

For example if Christ Jesus paid for all the sins of the world (everyone) then what else needs to be paid for? All sins are fully covered and fully redeemed for all people. There is nothing more to add. No human will ever be sent to hell because all their sins have been paid for. Heaven and hell will have nothing to do with sin and wickedness. God would be completely unjust to send any human to hell, if general redemption is true.

So, it seems to me that you have to be much more precise in how you define general redemption, because it seems to me that you still believe people will be sent to hell. I ask you...on what grounds will they be sent to hell? It certainly won't be because they owe a debt for their sins (if your definition of general redemption is true).

 

[37818]

Please provide a more precise definition.

For example if Christ Jesus paid for all the sins of the world (everyone) then what else needs to be paid for? All sins are fully covered and fully redeemed for all people. There is nothing more to add. No human will ever be sent to hell because all their sins have been paid for. Heaven and hell will have nothing to do with sin and wickedness. God would be completely unjust to send any human to hell, if general redemption is true.

So, it seems to me that you have to be much more precise in how you define general redemption, because it seems to me that you still believe people will be sent to hell. I ask you...on what grounds will they be sent to hell? It certainly won't be because they owe a debt for their sins (if your definition of general redemption is true).

You have your mind made up. It seems you already deny anyone today can be redeemed. People go to Hell because their name is not in God's book, Revelation 20:15. And the word of God only speaks of names bring removed or never being removed. Nowhere how their names are in the book to be removed.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please, very clearly and succinctly, define General Redemption and Particular Redemption. We need these definitions to have any productive discussion. There is no succinct definitions via an internet browser search. At best there is a generic write up on redemption.
Redemption - The Gospel Coalition

Always thought particular redemption meant that Jesus died just for the sake of the elect of God, as they were the only sinners intended to get saved and secured by His atoning death?

 

[AustinC]

You have your mind made up. It seems you already deny anyone today can be redeemed. People go to Hell because their name is not in God's book, Revelation 20:15. And the word of God only speaks of names bring removed or never being removed. Nowhere how their names are in the book to be removed.

I am attempting to have you actually think about what you are saying by giving you an opportunity to clearly define the terms. However, it seems you are either purposely muddy or you will not honestly follow your claim to its conclusion. I am waiting for you to be honest regarding this subject rather than make general assertions with no definition.

 

[AustinC]

You have your mind made up. It seems you already deny anyone today can be redeemed. People go to Hell because their name is not in God's book, Revelation 20:15. And the word of God only speaks of names bring removed or never being removed. Nowhere how their names are in the book to be removed.

So people don't go to hell because of their sin?

Instead, they go to hell because God didn't write their name down in the book of life.

Entrance to heaven and hell would, by your reckoning, have nothing to do with holiness and sin, but it is solely based on your name being written down in the book of life.

What then was the purpose of Jesus death, burial and resurrection? In your position, it is entirely worthless. If all sins are fully and entirely paid by Jesus shed blood, but it isn't the shed blood that provides entrance, then of what good is the payment? Jesus died in vain.

Does God just pick a few holy person's out of the large bin of all humanity that is perfectly made holy by Jesus payment? Do all the rest, whom Jesus paid their debt, go to hell because the perfect beings were not on a list in the book of life?

Please explain this theology of yours for it is entirely unorthodox.

 

[37818]

I am attempting to have you actually think about what you are saying by giving you an opportunity to clearly define the terms. However, it seems you are either purposely muddy or you will not honestly follow your claim to its conclusion. I am waiting for you to be honest regarding this subject rather than make general assertions with no definition.

The argument I am making is particular redemption is within a general redemption. Without which how can anyone know they have a part in the redemption? So how do you understand a yet lost person has a part in the redemption?

 

[AustinC]

The argument I am making is particular redemption is within a general redemption. Without which how can anyone know they have a part in the redemption? So how do you understand a yet lost person has a part in the redemption?

I know what you are saying, but you are not defining the terms.

If, general redemption means that God paid for all the sins of all the world, then the only conclusion is that all humanity is fully redeemed, made holy and perfect in the eyes of God. No debt is owed by any person.

In General redemption (as you have attempted to define it) there would be no one who is lost because God has already fully redeemed them. Your last sentence cannot possibly exist according to your view of general redemption.

Redemption can only be particular to the individual. God, before the foundation of the world, had the individual marked out as one who, in the course of time, would believe. The redemption is and always has been particular. General redemption is no different than universalism whereby all humanity has been redeemed and therefore all humanity is in the book of life.

It is incumbent upon you to unknot the convolution of your assertion that general redemption exists in a large umbrella, in which particular redemption would fall under the large umbrella. Your assertion makes no sense.

 

[37818]

I know what you are saying, but you are not defining the terms.

If, general redemption means that God paid for all the sins of all the world, then the only conclusion is that all humanity is fully redeemed, made holy and perfect in the eyes of God. No debt is owed by any person.

In General redemption (as you have attempted to define it) there would be no one who is lost because God has already fully redeemed them. Your last sentence cannot possibly exist according to your view of general redemption.

Redemption can only be particular to the individual. God, before the foundation of the world, had the individual marked out as one who, in the course of time, would believe. The redemption is and always has been particular. General redemption is no different than universalism whereby all humanity has been redeemed and therefore all humanity is in the book of life.

It is incumbent upon you to unknot the convolution of your assertion that general redemption exists in a large umbrella, in which particular redemption would fall under the large umbrella. Your assertion makes no sense.

You reject general redemption. And you did not answer how a person can know if they are redeemed.

 

[AustinC]

You reject general redemption. And you did not answer how a person can know if they are redeemed.

Sigh...
I do reject universalism, which is exactly what general redemption is. You, yourself defined it as such.

How does any person know they are redeemed? The Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, which leads to repentance, thus confirming the faith that God has given.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16

But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[37818]

How does any person know they are redeemed? The Holy Spirit convicts them of sin, which leads to repentance, thus confirming the faith that God has given.

We disagree. Indeed God gives repentance - a change of mind. Repentance comes before any kind of faith.

1 Corinthians 2:9-16

But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

The "we" the Apostle Paul and those Corinthians. What Paul told them there does not tell anyone today that one is among the redeemed.

 

[37818]

Without general redemption being true no one today can know one is redeemed.

 

[AustinC]

We disagree. Indeed God gives repentance - a change of mind. Repentance comes before any kind of faith.



The "we" the Apostle Paul and those Corinthians. What Paul told them there does not tell anyone today that one is among the redeemed.

Why are you openly ignoring your own definition of general redemption, which is point blank statement that you are a universalist?
We disagree because I believe universalism is a heresy and you don't.

Second, the spiritually dead never repent and only those whom God has made alive and given faith can repent. 37818, you have to completely ignore Ephesians 2:1-9 if you chose to believe that repentance comes before faith.

 

[37818]

Why are you openly ignoring your own definition of general redemption, which is point blank statement that you are a universalist?
We disagree because I believe universalism is a heresy and you don't.

I believe universalism is heresy. General redemption does mean Christ paid for the sins of everybody. It is a particular redemption for those who believe in Christ as their savior. Romans 8:34. Those so reject Christ He will be their Judge, John 5:23-24. Revelation 20:11-15.

Second, the spiritually dead never repent and only those whom God has made alive and given faith can repent. 37818, you have to completely ignore Ephesians 2:1-9 if you chose to believe that repentance comes before faith.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
Sanctification of the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:2 into obedience must not be rejected, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.

What you refuse to understand is unless general redemption must be true or 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 makes no sense.

And you still have not explained how one can know one is redeemed if general redemption is not true.

 

[AustinC]

I believe universalism is heresy. General redemption does mean Christ paid for the sins of everybody. It is a particular redemption for those who believe in Christ as their savior. Romans 8:34. Those so reject Christ He will be their Judge, John 5:23-24. Revelation 20:11-15.


2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
Sanctification of the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:2 into obedience must not be rejected, Acts of the Apostles 7:51, Hebrews 10:29.

What you refuse to understand is unless general redemption must be true or 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 makes no sense.

And you still have not explained how one can know one is redeemed if general redemption is not true.

General redemption is Universalism, therefore general redemption is a heresy.

All sins paid for means all person's redeemed. There is no need for any particular redemption if general redemption is true.

It seems there is something about redemption and atonement that you are not accepting and thus you are unable to see that general redemption and universal atonement are one and the same thing.