The General redumption is essentual.

[37818]

General redemption is Universalism, therefore general redemption is a heresy.

All sins paid for means all person's redeemed. There is no need for any particular redemption if general redemption is true.

It seems there is something about redemption and atonement that you are not accepting and thus you are unable to see that general redemption and universal atonement are one and the same thing.

In your strawman argument. I do not believe in universalism. Never have.
The truth of the redemption for those who God has saved is not at issue.

If a general redemption is not true how can yet lost persons know Christ paid for their sins?

 

[AustinC]

In your strawman argument. I do not believe in universalism. Never have.
The truth of the redemption for those who God has saved is not at issue.

If a general redemption is not true how can yet lost persons know Christ paid for their sins?

You refuse to acknowledge that general redemption is universalism. So... if you believe in general redemption, you believe in universalism. You cannot get around this fact.

Those who are dead in sin cannot know their sins are paid for. God must first make them alive with Christ so that they can know, by faith, that Jesus paid for their sins. This is why only particular redemption is true. Until God makes a person alive with Christ, that person can hear the gospel a million times and never know their sins are paid. The gospel will sound completely foolish to them.

Think through your assertions and see how incompatible they are with God's word. You are earnest and well meaning, but you are not discerning what God says about his choosing to redeem sinners.

 

[MB]

Always thought particular redemption meant that Jesus died just for the sake of the elect of God, as they were the only sinners intended to get saved and secured by His atoning death?

Where does the Bible say only the elect will be saved? I call this writing your own doctrine because that is not in scripture.
MB

 

[37818]

You refuse to acknowledge that general redemption is universalism.

Yes. Because universalism is not true. And without a general redemption how does lost persons know if they are even redeemed? You given argument not from the word of God.

You refuse to acknowledge that general redemption is universalism. So... if you believe in general redemption, you believe in universalism. You cannot get around this fact.

Those who are dead in sin cannot know their sins are paid for. God must first make them alive with Christ so that they can know, by faith, that Jesus paid for their sins. This is why only particular redemption is true. Until God makes a person alive with Christ, that person can hear the gospel a million times and never know their sins are paid. The gospel will sound completely foolish to them.

Think through your assertions and see how incompatible they are with God's word. You are earnest and well meaning, but you are not discerning what God says about his choosing to redeem sinners.

Ephesians 2:1-8 . . . Is through faith.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 makes no sense if one is not included in a general redemption.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Another thread that will be hijacked by those who support the unbiblical teaching know as limited atonement, or particular redemption. Both destroyed by John 3.16

 

[AustinC]

Another thread that will be hijacked by those who support the unbiblical teaching know as limited atonement, or particular redemption. Both destroyed by John 3.16

John 3 fully supports limited atonement and particular redemption. A person, such as yourself, may ignore the whole of scripture to make a claim from one verse out of context, but in that case I suggest you are the one doing the hijacking.

Now, do you care to argue for universal atonement that does not universally pay for all sins? If so, show us how God teaches it in his word.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

May I add my $0.02 to this seemly eternal controversy? I see no hands raised in opposition (Praise by to Jesus!!), so here goes: I'm not very versed in all the details of this controversy since I never spent one second in any seminary, Baptist or otherwise. OTOH, my view(s) is/are this: Redemption as people see it from their perspective is really a two-sided coin. What WE see is "Whosoever Will," but on the reverse side (i.e., as God sees it) is "Elect according to the foreknowledge of the Triune God." In His infinite wisdom, we're not told who the elect are, but the all-knowing God knows exactly who they are, and for good reason(s). In both Matthew & Acts, we are commanded (not merely suggested) "Ye SHALL be My witnesses in Jerusalem & Judea & in Samaria & unto the uttermost parts of the world. (Acts 1:8b) IMHO opinion that pretty well covers a bunch of territory. Notice Jesus didn't tell us that we'd always be successful at it, but merely to DO it. The greatest human missionary next to Jesus Himself, the Apostle Paul, wrote time & time again about grace outside of & apart from any works that we could muster up, that redemption and/or salvation is solely by God's Grace (or as one acronym puts it--- God's Riches At Christ's Expense) plus nothing minus nothing. If we were/are told who'll it is whom God elects, we'd probably be a Hard-Shell, anti-missionary "God knows, so why-even-have-missionaries-anyway!!" I'm basically lazy & can think of lots of things to keep me in my self-surrounding comfort zone, & I'd venture that most of you are too (If we're truly honest.) Does that make each and every individual Christian a Billy-Graham-Massive-Crusade-Like Evangelist? No. The Holy Spirit gives out various gifts as He sees fit. The Apostle Paul wrote about this. Not everyone is called to be an up-front massive audience Bible-pounding evangelist as so often is portrayed (Even in some Baptist circles). OTOH, we should rejoice that He's given each & every one of us a role to fulfill, especially to those who are closest to us: Our families. Noah is an excellent example. It took him & his three sons & their three wives (+ and any children He may have blessed his offspring with.) For at least 120 years he & his family toiled with building the ark God commanded. When God told Noah to come into the ark (A picture of Jesus.) He also told Noah what? And bring your wife and your three sons & their wives also! Did anyone else enter that ark? No, but Noah's family did. He would have been considered a flop according to this world's criteria, but he obeyed God. This is what we too are COMMANDED (not just suggested) to do. It may not be easy, but then Jesus didn't have things easy dying for us on the cross either. I'm not suggesting that we stop pondering about things we're not given complete knowledge. I'm merely saying let's no fret over the minors when we should major on the majors. "To God be THE Glory, GREAT Things He has done! So loved He the world that He gave us His Son!" Selah.

 

[AustinC]

Teaching that God redeemed all humans universally (general redemption) is a huge deal. If God has done so, then evangelism is not needed because all have been made completely innocent before God. God cannot judge one person as guilty because Jesus removed their guilt by paying for their sins. All humanity will be in heaven forever. When we enter the Kingdom we will say hello to Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, the Boston Strangler, etc. They will all be in heaven if general redemption is true.

 

[37818]

Teaching that God redeemed all humans universally (general redemption) is a huge deal. If God has done so, then evangelism is not needed because all have been made completely innocent before God. God cannot judge one person as guilty because Jesus removed their guilt by paying for their sins. All humanity will be in heaven forever. When we enter the Kingdom we will say hello to Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, the Boston Strangler, etc. They will all be in heaven if general redemption is true.

You are arguing against a view not held here.

 

[37818]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, ". . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. . . ."

 

[Paul from Antioch]

OK...Hopefully this'll be "My Final Answer." We hear "Whosoever Will May Come." What about the "Whosoever WON'T"? Moreover, if "Whosoever Won't" might not have heard Jesus say "I AM the Truth, the Light, & NOone can come to the Father" possibly because none of us have told them? Do we have to continuously major on the "What Ifs?" Carried to its logical conclusion, we can "What Ifs" off His Throne. Don't we who know Christ as our Personal Savior have better things on which we MUST concentrate? If our house is engulfed in flames, are we better off waiting for the firefighters WE agree 110+% on every minute detail of soteriology, or do we seek after the nearest FD/firefighters we find? IMHO, I'd choose the latter. Isn't it about time we start Majoring on the Majors instead of the other way? Again, I know that there are some things God has kept us from completely understanding. He's GOD & we aren't. Have I done all I can possibly do to fulfill the "Ye SHALL BE My witnesses? (BTW, a synonym for a witness is a MARTYR.) I know that I haven't kept up my part of His COMMAND. I'm not gonna point a criticizing finger at anyone....I've got 3 x's as many pointing right back to my own heart. Thank God He's a forgiving God, but to seek His forgiveness time after time after time, etc., surely is a thing I don't want to plead GUILTY about, do you? In OT times, when His people forgot what He time and time TOLD them to do, He sent pagan peoples to led Israel into captivity. Twice the Apostle Paul warned us to recall what happened to His people & the Apostle Paul himself wept over Israel's refusal to come to the Light. You think God's Word is trying to tell us something? Selah.

 

[1689Dave]

The General Redemption is Essential.

Those are precisely two of the reasons general redemption must be. true.

I never said any such thing.

Within the general redemption is where the particular redemption resides.

Without the general redemption being true, one cannot not know for sure that one is saved in the particular redemption. All the New Testament documents handed down to us, were not directly written to us, but to our first century believers, by which we can only be a part of the particular redemption by it being part of the general redemption.

You imply most of Christ's shed blood does not save anyone. Including the saved who must save themselves through works (meeting conditions). That is, you turn the gospel into law and believing into work. Yet scripture says Jesus purchased the church with his own blood. That is why they believe and do good works.

 

[1689Dave]

The general redemption 1 John 2:2, ". . . And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ."
Particular redemption John 10:15, ". . . As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ."

Remember, Jesus said the reason the Pharisees did not believe is that they are not his sheep.

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

 

[SavedByGrace]

Remember, Jesus said the reason the Pharisees did not believe is that they are not his sheep.

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” John 10:26 (KJV 1900)

by your interpretation, a sinner "believes" because they are "sheep". But for someone to be a "sheep", they first must be saved. so the sinner is first "saved", and then they "believe", and then they are "saved" again!

Jesus is taking to these Jews, who had refused to believe in Him, and therefore were not His sheep! Not the twist of the "reformed"!

 

[SavedByGrace]

You imply most of Christ's shed blood does not save anyone. Including the saved who must save themselves through works (meeting conditions). That is, you turn the gospel into law and believing into work. Yet scripture says Jesus purchased the church with his own blood. That is why they believe and do good works.

see that some of the "reformed" believe "repentance" to be a "work", then indeed "Works" do play a part of being saved. Look at Jonah 3:10, for example, "when God saw their WORKS..."; And the 3000+ who asked Peter after his first sermon, "what must we DO?" (Acts 2:27). And Acts 10:34-35, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and WORKETH righteousness, is ACCEPTED with him.". THIS is what the Bible says, not your theology!

 

[37818]

New Teaching that God redeemed all humans universally (general redemption) is a huge deal. If God has done so, then evangelism is not needed because all have been made completely innocent before God. <snip>

You have an unBiblical view of redemption.

 

[MB]

see that some of the "reformed" believe "repentance" to be a "work", then indeed "Works" do play a part of being saved. Look at Jonah 3:10, for example, "when God saw their WORKS..."; And the 3000+ who asked Peter after his first sermon, "what must we DO?" (Acts 2:27). And Acts 10:34-35, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and WORKETH righteousness, is ACCEPTED with him.". THIS is what the Bible says, not your theology!

Calvinism has no gospel because everything they believe is bad news. They say they do not believe works can save. Then claim that those who have no works are not saved even though the Bible clearly states;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Calvinist believe works are a fruit of the Spirit and if you don't have any they can't prove they are saved.
If you've had any experince with JW's you'll find they have many things in common.
MB

 

[AustinC]

You are arguing against a view not held here.

I am arguing against your definition of general redemption.

The issue is that you refuse to follow your definition to its completion. I can point it out to you, but you refuse to believe it.
It's like pointing out that the clear liquid in the container is battery acid, but because it looks like water the person refuses to believe what is being said. Will the person open that bottle and drink to his death or will that person heed the warning?

 

[37818]

<snip> the saved who must save themselves through works (meeting conditions).<snip>

You are arguing against a view not held by me. A strawman argument. Romans 4:5.

 

[AustinC]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, ". . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. . . ."

A good passage showing general redemption is false.