Re: Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?

[Humble Disciple]

I'm responding to this old thread:
Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?

Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God's elect will never rebel, but instead that God's grace is capable of ultimately overcoming their resistance.

While some of God's elect just need a gentle nudge of the Holy Spirit, others need to have their entire lives turned upside down for God to draw them to Himself.

In the cases of Jonah and Paul, God used the means that were necessary for their particular circumstances.

This is from the 1689 London Baptist Confession:

The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season His own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;
and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of His elect is by His appointment, for His glory, and their good.
1689 Baptist Confession Chapter 5

Saving faith is the gift of God's grace, irrespective of one's free-willed efforts to believe or not believe.

No one who honestly desires to be saved will be turned away. If you express concern about your salvation, that's a sign that you are among God's elect.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I have no reason to doubt Dr. Flowers' salvation or sincerity, but I think he might be embittered toward the Calvinism that he once held to, thus compromising his objectivity.

Believing that I've been unconditionally elected unto salvation, that saving faith is entirely the gift of God's grace, irrespective of my free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve, and that I will be preserved in the faith by God's irresistible grace makes me love Jesus more, not less. It also makes me want to humble myself before God and my fellow man more, not less.

I wish that Dr. Flowers was able to see the positive side to Calvinism, the benefits of Calvinism, that John Piper and others seem to experience.

Furthermore, it's misleading when he refers to his own position as "traditionalism," given that Reformed Baptists have existed for hundreds of years, and I would imagine that Calvinism has always existed within the SBC, of which I'm not a member.

 

[Humble Disciple]

 

[Iconoclast]

Poor Leighton used to be on here as Skandelon if you search the archives.
He made failed attempts to attack the 5 points and still tries 24/7. His failed debate against James White was classic.
He spends his time trying to undo the verses teaching the 5 points all in vain.
You will welcome the L when you study out the Priesthood and intercession of Jesus as our Great High Priest, Mediator, and Surety. Take a look at Hugh Martins's book on the atonement and John Murray on Redemption Accomplished and Applied.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Poor Leighton used to be on here as Skandelon if you search the archives.
He made failed attempts to attack the 5 points and still tries 24/7. His failed debate against James White was classic.

Is it possible for a Calvinist to find Dr. Flowers to be a more likable person than James White? White seems to act pretty arrogantly for someone whose degree basically came from a diploma mill.

While I believe that White has the more correct theology, correct theology isn't always what's more important:

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

1 Corinthians 3:4
When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world?

The most important concept of John Calvin’s theology is God’s grace, that our election unto salvation is completely the unmerited gift of God.

If you truly believe yourself to be among God’s elect, then your attitude should be that of thankfulness and humility, with a desire to serve God and others the rest of your life, no matter how many times you might fail.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is it possible for a Calvinist to find Dr. Flowers to be a more likable person than James White? White seems to act pretty arrogantly for someone whose degree basically came from a diploma mill.

While I believe that White has the more correct theology, correct theology isn't always what's more important:

The most important concept of John Calvin’s theology is God’s grace, that our election unto salvation is completely the unmerited gift of God.

If you truly believe yourself to be among God’s elect, then your attitude should be that of thankfulness and humility, with a desire to serve God and others the rest of your life, no matter how many times you might fail.

Did Dr. Whites [diploma mill]degree teach Him to read and teach Greek and Arabic?
The charge of arrogance is made by those who cannot refute the teaching.
Dr. White is not arrogant. He was invited to a debate on Romans 9, he exegeted the passage, Leighton never opened the passage. Did you see the debate?

 

[Iconoclast]

Did Dr. Whites [diploma mill]degree teach Him to read and teach Greek and Arabic?

You think what school you went to determines your gift?

What school did Amos go to?

 

[Humble Disciple]

You think what school you went to determines your gift?

What school did Amos go to?

I think you are missing my point. Based on his Youtube videos that I've seen, White doesn't seem to be a particularly friendly or inviting person, especially when dealing with his theological opponents.

 

[Iconoclast]

I think you are missing my point. Based on his Youtube videos that I've seen, White doesn't seem to be a particularly friendly or inviting person, especially when dealing with his theological opponents.

He is both friendly and inviting. Before making such a charge you should investigate a person more than a youtube view.
When you see him in debates, he is dealing with those who deny Jesus is Lord, those who deny the deity of Christ, those who deny the grace of God. He prepares for days, reading and listening to the false teaching opponent. I have been to 3 of his debates and seen him preach live several times.
He is very gracious.

 

[Humble Disciple]

He is both friendly and inviting. Before making such a charge you should investigate a person more than a youtube view.

I'm sorry if I've misjudged James White, but I'm still not going to validate his doctoral degree.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm sorry if I've misjudged James White, but I'm still not going to validate his doctoral degree.

Have you detected error on his part, in writings, books or sermons that you attribute to his education?
Could you post examples of such?

You could call the dividing line and point out such errors on the air?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Have you detected error on his part, in writings, books or sermons that you attribute to his education?
Could you post examples of such?

You could call the dividing line and point out such errors on the air?

It's just a matter of honesty and integrity. When he uses the title "doctor," it's unfair to people who legitimately earned it.

Are you saying that his doctoral degree was a legitimate degree? I'd be curious to know what made it legitimate.

 

[Humble Disciple]

In this video, Dr. Flowers claims that Calvinism is bad, because it might be discouraging to addicts and others who've suffered from rejection in life. I would contend that the opposite is true.

If you've been rejected your whole life, it should be refreshing to learn that God has unconditionally elected you, from before the world began, unto salvation, regardless of any merit on your part, not even the free-willed effort to believe or not believe.

It should be refreshing to learn that, as a member of God's elect, He will never give up on you, no matter how much you stumble in life, and will safely lead you to ultimate salvation.

In another video, Dr. Flowers says that if you are an addict, Calvinism doesn't give you any incentive to take personal responsibility over your addiction. The reality is that a good Calvinist struggling with addiction would ask for God's grace to help him, just as members of AA and NA do.

Also, even if we have no free will in matters of salvation, that doesn't mean we don't have any free will over our addictions. How many Calvinists refuse to do anything to improve their own lives, out of a belief that God is sovereign over everything they do?

 

[Humble Disciple]

I forgot to mention that if you truly believe you are among God's elect, you should live in such a way that reflects it. Dr. Flowers' assertion that there is no room for personal responsibility in Calvinism is a gross oversimplification.

Awareness of their election should not lead Christians to complacency. Rather the opposite, for God requires a higher standard of conduct in those who are his chosen people (Amos 3:2; Micah 3:9-12; 1 Peter 4:17). The way people live is the proof or disproof of their election (2 Peter 1:9-11; cf. Titus 1:1; 1 John 2:29; 1 John 3:10).
Election - Bridgeway Bible Dictionary -

I pray for God's grace to accomplish something, so that He may be glorified, and then I follow through, to the best of my ability, to accomplish it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Humble Disciple,

It's just a matter of honesty and integrity. When he uses the title "doctor," it's unfair to people who legitimately earned it.

Are you saying that his doctoral degree was a legitimate degree? I'd be curious to know what made it legitimate.

What do you mean when you say legitimately earned it? In your mind, what measure do you have?

Here is the apostate with a degree...did it help him?
John Shelby Spong Bio, Wife, Kids, Career, 12 Theses, Books and Quotes

HD, let me illustrate with a sports analogy; If Peyton Manning, John Elway, Dan Marino, Joe Namath , Joe Montana, and Tom Brady played football only at community college....would their ability have been different? would it be less?

The competition would not have been as talented, but would Joe Namath not have as quick a release? would Joe Montana not be as accurate? Would Dan Marino not throw a frozen rope?

 

[Reynolds]

I think you are missing my point. Based on his Youtube videos that I've seen, White doesn't seem to be a particularly friendly or inviting person, especially when dealing with his theological opponents.

Most good debaters do not seem likable. What does that matter?

 

[Humble Disciple]

What do you mean when you say legitimately earned it? In your mind, what measure do you have?

Please look at, for example, everything that Paul Washer has accomplished, with only a master's degree:

Paul Washer became a believer while studying at the University of Texas. He completed his undergraduate studies and enrolled at Southwestern Theological Seminary, where he received his Master of Divinity degree. After graduating, he moved to Peru and served there as a missionary for ten years, during which time he founded the HeartCry Missionary Society in order to support Peruvian church planters. HeartCry's work now supports indigenous missionaries throughout Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East, Eurasia, and Latin America.

Paul now serves as one of the laborers with the HeartCry Missionary Society. He and his wife Charo have three children: Ian, Evan, and Rowan.
Paul Washer | Grace Community Church

I believe it's more honest for Paul Washer to be satisfied with his master's degree than to claim that he has a doctoral degree that he never really earned.

Are you saying that James White deserves to be called "doctor" and that he legitimately earned that distinction?

 

[Humble Disciple]

Most good debaters do not seem likable. What does that matter?

James White's Catholic debate opponents have complained about him not willing to eat lunch with them after a debate or even shake their hand. I guess that makes sense if he doesn't consider Catholics to be fellow Christians.

What I don't like is that he accuses anyone who disagrees with Calvinism, even fellow Baptists and evangelicals, of being Pelagian. Is it right for James White to call Leighton Flowers a Pelagian?

I can't believe that I am defending Leighton Flowers, since I disagree with his theology, but he seems to be the more likable person of the two.

 

[Iconoclast]

I forgot to mention that if you truly believe you are among God's elect, you should live in such a way that reflects it. Dr. Flowers' assertion that there is no room for personal responsibility in Calvinism is a gross oversimplification.



I pray for God's grace to accomplish something, so that He may be glorified, and then I follow through, to the best of my ability, to accomplish it.

James White's Catholic debate opponents have complained about him not willing to eat lunch with them after a debate or even shake their hand. I guess that makes sense if he doesn't consider Catholics to be fellow Christians.

What I don't like is that he accuses anyone who disagrees with Calvinism, even fellow Baptists and evangelicals, of being Pelagian. Is it right for James White to call Leighton Flowers a Pelagian?

I can't believe that I am defending Leighton Flowers, since I disagree with his theology, but he seems to be the more likable person of the two.

Do you have a quote of DR.White saying they are all pelagian?
Leighton is a pelagian. He is a nice likable person leading people away from truth. You have never met either person but you determine this?
Catholics call DR. White.....the noted anti Catholic on Catholic radio stations nationwide. Why do you think that is?

 

[Iconoclast]

Please look at, for example, everything that Paul Washer has accomplished, with only a master's degree:



I believe it's more honest for Paul Washer to be satisfied with his master's degree than to claim that he has a doctoral degree that he never really earned.

Are you saying that James White deserves to be called "doctor" and that he legitimately earned that distinction?

I believe you have not answered this;
Here is the apostate with a degree...did it help him?
John Shelby Spong Bio, Wife, Kids, Career, 12 Theses, Books and Quotes

HD, let me illustrate with a sports analogy; If Peyton Manning, John Elway, Dan Marino, Joe Namath , Joe Montana, and Tom Brady played football only at community college....would their ability have been different? would it be less?

The competition would not have been as talented, but would Joe Namath not have as quick a release? would Joe Montana not be as accurate? Would Dan Marino not throw a frozen rope?

You are hung up on a piece of paper that you claim is sub par, based on nothing.
Have you read any of Dr. Whites books?