Re: Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?

[Van]

Post 40 asked for a definition of Irresistible Grace, a fictional doctrine invented by Calvinism.
Here is one of the definitions subsequently supplied from "Got Questions."

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).​

But before we jump into an analysis of the fiction, we need to back up an ask why was the fiction invented? Calvinism wrongly asserts that fallen humanity has total spiritual inability, so they are completely unable to understand the gospel or seek God. And therefore, to overcome this fictional disability, Calvinism invented the enabling action of God, the so-called "irresistible grace."

Now lets look at one of the verses, cited above, claimed to refer to their fictional creation!

John 6:37 (NASB95)
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Here the ambiguity is the meaning of "come to Me." If we remove the ambiguity we get: Everyone that the Father gives to Me will arrive within Me, and the one transported into Me I will certainly not cast out.

Thus the irresistible action by God in this verse has nothing to do with God creating our faith in Christ within us. Totally a prove "A" then claim "B" has been proved argument. Behold the fallacy of Calvinism!

 

[tyndale1946]

I woke up this morning clearly visualizing a snake form of sin, winding it’s coils around people, coercing them to question scripture thus sowing discontent and dissent among the brethren. Gotta stay in the word!

PS: Pam and I are going to be grandparents for the first time. God is good!!!

Well congratulations you two!... Now don't bust your buttons!... Brother Glen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well congratulations you two!... Now don't bust your buttons!... Brother Glen

Now she is prodding me to move to Florida. Place too snakey to me!

 

[Humble Disciple]

I don't post on this forum to convince others of Calvinism. If God willed for you to be a Calvinist, you would be a Calvinist. Instead, I am here to provide lines of evidence in favor of Calvinism, so that fellow Calvinists will be strengthened in their Calvinism.

I have no reason to sling mud at non-Calvinists for their biblical and doctrinal inconsistencies, though I wish they would stop misrepresenting Calvinism and its doctrinal foundations.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is a thumb nail sketch, taken from my Primitive Baptist church


ARTICLES OF FAITH
1: We believe in one true and living God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these three are one. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1, I John 5:7.

2: We believe the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the revealed and inspired word of God, and the only rule of faith and practice, particularly the New Testament, for saints under this dispensation. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:21.

3: We believe that in the transgression of Adam, he fell under the just condemnation of God’s holy law, that all the human race was corrupted in and by him and that it is impossible for any of them to recover themselves or gain the favor of God by their own works or an act of their own will. John 6:44, Romans 3:9-20, Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1.

4: We believe God, before the foundation of the world, unconditionally elected a definite number of the human family in Jesus Christ and ordained them to eternal life and glory. Romans 8:29, Romans 9:11-13, Ephesians 1:4-6, Thessalonians 1:4

5: We believe Jesus Christ suffered and died in the room and stead of His elect only and that His elect are justified in the sight of God by the imputed righteousness of Christ. Acts 20:28, John 10:11, Hebrews 10:14, Romans 5:8-10.

6: We believe that the Holy Spirit effectually calls, regenerates, and sanctifies all the elect of God. John 6:37, 2 Timothy 1:9, Jude 1.

7: We believe all the elect shall be preserved in grace by the power of God and never fall finally away. John 10:27, Romans 8:30, Philippians 1:6.

8: We believe that good works, obedience to the commands of God, are well pleasing in His sight and should be maintained; but they are to be considered only as evidence of a gracious state, and are not a condition of eternal salvation. Ephesians 2:10, Hebrews 13:16, James 2:17-18, Galatians 5:22-23.

9: We believe that baptism and the Lord’s Supper are ordinances of Jesus Christ and that true believers are the only fit subjects for baptism and immersion is the only proper mode. Matthew 28:19, Luke 22:19-20, I Corinthians 11:24-25.

10: We believe that as our Lord and Savior washed His disciples’ feet, we ought to wash one another’s feet. John 13:4-17, I Timothy 5:10.

11: We believe in the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust, and a general judgment, and the happiness of the righteous and the suffering of the wicked, will be everlasting. John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:12-15.

 

[Humble Disciple]

 

[Humble Disciple]

Irresistible grace is one of the easiest to defend doctrines of the entire Bible. The problem is that too many people are unfamiliar with its meaning and its Biblical basis.

The doctrine of irresistible grace recognizes that the Bible describes natural man as “dead in his trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1; Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13), and, because man is spiritually dead, he must first be made alive or regenerated in order to understand and respond to the gospel message...

As Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:3, one must be “born again to see the kingdom of God.” John 1:12-13 tells us that being born again is not the result of something we do—“the will of man”—but is a sovereign act of God. Just as Lazarus could not bring himself back to life or respond to Jesus’ command without being brought back to life, neither can sinful man. Ephesians 2:1-10 makes it very clear that while we are still dead in our trespasses and sin God makes us alive...

The reason God’s grace is irresistible and efficacious (always bringing forth the desired result) is that God “has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into” His kingdom (Colossians 1:13)...

This is the call of God that Jesus spoke of in John 6:37-47. The certainty of this inward call is seen in John 6:37: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” John 6:44 confirms this: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Other verses where irresistible grace can be seen include 2 Corinthians 4:1-6; Acts 13:48; Acts 16:14 and Romans 8:30. In 2 Corinthians 4:1-6, after explaining why some people do not believe the gospel (it is veiled to them and their minds have been blinded toward it), Paul writes, “For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6). The God who said, “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) is the same God who gives the light of salvation to those He chooses, and the result is just as sure. The same truth is seen in a different way in Acts 13:48. Here it is said that “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” God saves those He chooses to save; therefore, His saving grace is always effective or efficacious. In Acts 16:14, we have another example of God’s irresistible grace in action. The Lord opened the heart of Lydia “to respond the things spoken of by Paul.” Finally you have what is called the “golden chain of redemption” in Romans 8:29-30. Here we see that everyone God calls to salvation (the inward call) will be saved (justified).
Irresistible Grace - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

The only way for God's purpose of election or predestination to be fulfilled is through His irresistible (enabling) grace.

God’s grace can be resisted, and the Holy Spirit’s influence can be resisted even by one of the elect. However, what the doctrine does correctly recognize is that the Holy Spirit can overcome all such resistance and that He will draw the elect with an irresistible grace that makes them want to come to God and helps them to understand the gospel so they can and will believe it.
Irresistible Grace - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Humble Disciple]

Irresistible grace is simply the teaching that saving faith is a divine gift, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve.

Luke 17:5, Mark 9:24, and numerous scripture passages already presented in this thread illustrate this doctrine.

God's enabling grace will, someday and somehow, overcome the stubborn resistance of God's elect ones, renewing their hearts and minds for the reception of saving faith.

 

[Humble Disciple]

For those looking for a brief, Biblical defense of the five points of Calvinism, here is the free ebook of Five Points: Towards a Deeper Experience of God’s Grace by John Piper.
https://document.desiringgod.org/five-points-en.pdf?ts=1446647340

 

[Humble Disciple]

Jesus would often say, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:9, Matthew 13:43, Mark 4:9, Luke 8:8, Luke 14:35

How does one receive the spiritual ears to hear the Gospel and respond to it? The answer is God's irresistible (enabling) grace:

Isaiah 50:5
The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears; I have not been rebellious, I have not turned away.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Job 36:10
He opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they return from evil.

Job 33:16
Then He opens the ears of men,
And seals their instruction

Revelation 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22; 13:9
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God's elect will never rebel against or resist God's grace, but that God's grace is powerful enough to overcome the elect's rebellion, transform their wills and desires, and lead them to ultimate salvation.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek helkó, to drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus would often say, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:9, Matthew 13:43, Mark 4:9, Luke 8:8, Luke 14:35

How does one receive the spiritual ears to hear the Gospel and respond to it? The answer is God's irresistible (enabling) grace:











Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God's elect will never rebel against or resist God's grace, but that God's grace is powerful enough to overcome the elect's rebellion, transform their wills and desires, and lead them to ultimate salvation.

IF the message was open to all to receive and understand, why did Jesus speak in parables that were closed to all save those with ears to hear and understand>

 

[Humble Disciple]

Calvinism is based on the observation that Biblical facts don’t care about your feelings. Many Arminians have said they wouldn’t believe in a God who, in His own good pleasure, chooses to save some and not others.

It’s God’s grace alone which saves, and numerous passages of scripture demonstrate that God’s grace is bestowed upon His elect. If God were obligated to save everyone, that would be justice and not grace.

https://www.gotquestions.org/unconditional-election.html

Saving faith is a gift of God’s grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve. (Mark 9:24, John 6:44, Matthew 11:27, etc.) Christians have nothing to boast about, and this is very humbling. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

All have fallen short of the glory of God, and therefore God isn’t obligated to save anyone. (Romans 3:23) Rather than grumbling that God has chosen to save some and not others, we should be thankful that He’s saved anyone at all.

There is nothing unfair about God’s sovereignty in election.(Romans 9:21) No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you sincerely care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.

If you truly care about the salvation of the lost, you should support evangelism, since the preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His elect. Some of the greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.

 

[Humble Disciple]

Matthew 3:9 beautifully illustrates the doctrine of irresistible grace. If God can raise up children of Abraham from stones, then He can unfailingly turn the hearts of His elect ones from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh.

 

[Van]

Matthew 3:9 beautifully illustrates the doctrine of irresistible grace. If God can raise up children of Abraham from stones, then He can unfailingly turn the hearts of His elect ones from hearts of stone to hearts of flesh.

Folks, here we have the "since God can do anything, he therefore did this thing" argument. Twaddle

 

[Van]

Calvinism is based on the observation that Biblical facts don’t care about your feelings. Many Arminians have said they wouldn’t believe in a God who, in His own good pleasure, chooses to save some and not others.

Here we have the construction of a strawman argument, a fallacy. Just because some Arminians may (none were named) not believe in our individual election, does not demonstrate the Calvinist view of pre-creation individual election is valid.

It’s God’s grace alone which saves, and numerous passages of scripture demonstrate that God’s grace is bestowed upon His elect. If God were obligated to save everyone, that would be justice and not grace.

https://www.gotquestions.org/unconditional-election.html

The fact that God (and God alone) chooses whom He will save is not at issue. So an example of mixing in truth to make the falsehood seem sound.

Saving faith is a gift of God’s grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve. (Mark 9:24, John 6:44, Matthew 11:27, etc.) Christians have nothing to boast about, and this is very humbling. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Complete fiction. I repeat two unanswered questions: (1) Why is it hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, when if the gift of faith was valid, it would be the same for all? (2) How is it that the people of Matthew 23:13 were prevented from entering the kingdom, if they had "saving faith" given to them. And the Fact those saved have nothing to boast about is not at issue, so more sugar to make the falsehood taste better.

There is nothing unfair about God’s sovereignty in election.(Romans 9:21) No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you sincerely care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.

The argument against "someone (Mr. Strawman)" who thinks God is unfair is fluff, as God is never "unfair." Next, God does turn away some who say they want to be saved, consider the second and third "soils" of Matthew 13. John 6:37 refers to those God chose, not those who professed but were not chosen.

If you truly care about the salvation of the lost, you should support evangelism, since the preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His elect. Some of the greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.

Here we have once again the fiction of God choosing individuals before they put their trust in Christ. However 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says the opposite, we were chosen for salvation through (or by reason of) faith is the truth. So Calvinism has it backwards.

 

[Humble Disciple]

The doctrine of free will and the teaching of resistible grace are cruel doctrines. They strip the child of God of the assurance of salvation. Then he must live in constant doubt and fear whether he will ever be saved. That is frightening! That is paralyzing! That is depressing!
Chapter 5 - Irresistible Grace

To know that God chose you, and God called you, and God gave you faith, and will never leave you, and will preserve you, and present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy — that assurance brings an invincible joy and strength and courage into your life.
What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism

 

[Humble Disciple]

Jesus would often say, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:9, Matthew 13:43, Mark 4:9, Luke 8:8, Luke 14:35

Who does God give the ears to hear Jesus' voice? His sheep, the elect. Jesus said to the unbelieving Pharisees, "You do not believe because you are not of My sheep," not the other way around.

John 10
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd...
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me...
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one.”

How do Jesus' sheep receive the spiritual ears to hear and respond to the Gospel? The answer is God’s irresistible (enabling) grace. Isaiah 50:5, Psalm 40:6, Job 36:10, Job 33:16, Revelation 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22; 13:9

There is nothing unfair about God’s sovereignty in election.(Romans 9:21) No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you sincerely care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.

If you truly care about the salvation of the lost, you should participate in or financially support evangelism, since the preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His sheep, the elect. Some of the greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.

Irresistible grace doesn't mean that God's elect will never rebel, but that God's grace is powerful enough to overcome the elect's rebellion, transform their wills and desires, and lead them to ultimate salvation.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek helkó, to drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you struggle with believing what the Bible teaches, I recommend praying that God opens up the ears of your mind and heart, and then start with reading John’s Gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

Folks, here we have the "since God can do anything, he therefore did this thing" argument. Twaddle

Twaddle

 

[Humble Disciple]

Calvinism doesn't need to be defended. It just needs to be clearly articulated, directly from the Bible, and whosoever has ears to hear will hear it.

There's no point to Calvinism if it can't be articulated from the Bible. There are numerous passages of scripture supporting the five points of Calvinism, and whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.

Calvinism is the teaching that God saves whoever He chooses (Romans 9:10-24), that even the most obstinate sinner can be transformed by God’s amazing grace (John 6:44). If you have a problem with that, you might have a problem with the Bible, and you might need to stop praying for God to save the lost.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I’m not here to convince non-Calvinists that they must follow Calvinism. I just want them to at least understand its Biblical and historical foundations, so that they will be less likely to condemn Calvinism for something that it isn’t.