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Featured Arminianism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Nov 24, 2021.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Disclaimer- I don't have a dog on the hunt when it comes to Calvinism vs Arminianism as I am neither. I am posting because I see a trend in portraying Arminianism as something it is not (at least by the 5 Articles).

    Arminianism presents men as completely unable to come to God. I understand Wesleyan Arminianism differs (and, like Calvinism, there are different versions). But Arminianism itself (Classic or Reformation Arminianism) rests entirely on God when it comes to salvation.

    The difference is that Arminianism affords men the ability to reject salvation. This distinction is important because far too many object to Arminianism by erroneously claiming it teaches that men, apart from God, can choose salvation. This is simply not true.

    It is also incorrect to present Arminianism (again, Classic or Reformation Arminianism) as holding that men corporates with God to be saved.

    In short, Arminianism holds that God alone saves, but men can rebell and reject that salvation.
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Will of man trumping will of God!
     
    #2 Yeshua1, Nov 24, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2021
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. Not the will of man trumping God. That is a misunderstanding of Arminianism.

    It is important when comparing doctrines to look at the opposing view within its own context. We have to be honest with the opposition in order to be honest with our own view.
     
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  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    = salvation by the works of not rejecting it.
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. The work is rejecting. Work requires effort on the part of the worker. Within Arminianism the work is in the rejecting.
     
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It is still a work of the flesh. If they were born again, they would not, or could not reject anything related.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Five Articles
    The Five Articles of Remonstrance (1610)
    Article 1


    That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevering this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

    Article 2
    That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16: “God so love the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

    Article 3
    That man has not saving grace himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself, neither thing, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5: “Without me ye can do nothing.”

    Article 4
    That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awaking, following and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But as respects the mode of the operation of this grace it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost (Acts 7:51), and elsewhere in many places.

    Article 5
    That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ (Heb 3:6, 14; 2 Pet 1:10; Jude 3; 1 Tim 1:19; Heb 11:13), of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered to them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming void of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with full persuasion of our minds.

    These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary of edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.

    Five Articles
     
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  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Universal atonement still kills any grace involved in Salvation, as always.
     
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. It is not. Belief in God is a work of God. Disbelief is a work of man. Consider the Spirit vs the flesh.

    The work unto salvation is God. Once man starts to try and save himself it is always a work of rejecting God.

    And remember I am speaking of Arminianism (a view I do not hold).
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is interesting that at the time of the debate (Dort) most Calvinists held to a universal atonement and criticized Calvinists who limited atonement as extreme.

    That said, theology evolves or is refined with time. Most who consider themselves Calvinist today would reject universal atonement.
     
  11. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It still makes man, not God, the savior. It wreaks with self-righteousness.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It makes man the author of his own destruction. God saves, man condemns.
     
  13. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    No, it's two-sided. Man saves himself by not resisting. = Salvation only for the self-righteous.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not trying to defend classic Arminianism, but I do not see how you get there. If salvation was for the self-righteous it seems the saved would have to do something to get saved. But that isn't Arminianism.
     
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    To not resist means to become obedient which is salvation by works.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. You are missing that with Arminianism (the 1st Article) the work is the Holy Spirit.

    The real issue is not a works based salvation but the will of God in salvation. Does Arminianism hold that the man rejecting God conquers God's will? The crux, I suppose, would be determining just what God desiring none be lost means.
     
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But the Holy Spirit saves no one. They save themselves through obedience (not resisting).
     
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not with Classic Arminianism (not with James Arminius' position). It is not salvation via obedience but salvation via God. The only thing men can do is resist to his condemnation.

    If you are referring to Wesleyan Arminianism then I agree.
     
  19. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:18–24 (KJV 1900)
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Arminian articles of the Remonstrance reveal the overarching idea that man must cooperate with God in a synergism and juxtaposition in order for salvation to be complete. Failure on man's part will result in eternal damnation.

    To me, such reliance on human assistance and cooperation cannot result in salvation because all human effort falls short of the glory of God.
    Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:1-10 makes this quite clear as the greek word(s) translated as dead in trespasses and sins convey the idea that humans attempted to get to God on their own and missed the mark so badly that they died in the attempt. Thus, the only means of salvation is for God to make a person alive and then take that person and not only hit the mark, but actually surpass the mark so that there is no doubt in their salvation.
    When humans are relied upon to cooperate in a synergism to be saved, it is sure that the human attempt will fall short of the mark and thus fail in the attempt.
    Because humans always fail to hit the mark, I hold to a monergist salvation where human failure is not relied upon. God and God alone accomplishes our salvation. Our assistance only ensures our incapacity and failure. It must be God and God alone.
     
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