The Mohler Amendment to the SBC Constitution

[Armchair Apologist]

I've only been in one Southern Baptist church. We had one instance involving an elder and an equally guilty female member. I was not involved in any church leadership position at the time. The elder was called out publicly in church, rebuked, removed and excommunicated. The woman was left unnamed, unshamed, and protected. Had it been a matter of child sex abuse or rape the authorities would have been called immediately, mainly for the protection of the perpetrator. I think it was handled properly.

My point was, it looks silly to on one hand call for more protection for your gender while at the same time claiming an equal ability to handle these situations. I am old fashioned but it used to be that there was more temptation and chance for something to go wrong if you hung around all day with female companions, however; I realize times have changed.

If both were equally guilty, both should be subject to church discipline and why was the elder excommunicated? Was he unrepentant or defiant towards the leadership of the church? He should definitely be removed from his position of eldership but should've remained a member if he expressed repentance and was willing to subject himself to the disciplinary action and eventual restoration - not to his eldership position but back to fellowship as a functioning member of the church. I dislike the idea of just sending someone packing where they could just go on down the road and wreak their havoc elsewhere!

 

[Ascetic X]

My point was, it looks silly to on one hand call for more protection for your gender while at the same time claiming an equal ability to handle these situations. I am old fashioned but it used to be that there was more temptation and chance for something to go wrong if you hung around all day with female companions, however; I realize times have changed.

No, the women are not claiming an equal ability to handle these situations of sex abuse.

The women want the SBC to stop covering for sex predator pastors. They want protection from, and prosecution of, perpetrators.

There are also males and females who demand that women be allowed to serve as pastors and teachers.

But it is not one group of ladies asking for protection and also wanting to be preachers to men and women.

Southern Baptist president says sexual abuse rumors were 'always out there'

The Southern Baptist Convention president Ed Litton spoke with ABC News Live about the sexual abuse investigations into denomination leadership.

abcnews.com

The president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Ed Litton, said the damning independent investigative report on sex abuse allegations is "long overdue."

"The rumors were always out there that these things were happening," Litton said on ABC News Live on Tuesday. "There were several attempts made at our convention meetings to bring this to light. But they were very successfully pushed down."

The report, conducted by Guidepost Solutions, an independent firm contracted by the Southern Baptist Convention's Executive Committee, found the denomination's top leaders ignored sexual abuse allegations and disparaged survivors for more than two decades.

In a 288-page report, investigators found that survivors and concerned Southern Baptists continuously shared allegations with the executive committee “only to be met, time and time again, with resistance, stonewalling, and even outright hostility from some within the EC."

 

[DaveXR650]

If both were equally guilty, both should be subject to church discipline and why was the elder excommunicated? Was he unrepentant or defiant towards the leadership of the church? He should definitely be removed from his position of eldership but should've remained a member if he expressed repentance and was willing to subject himself to the disciplinary action and eventual restoration - not to his eldership position but back to fellowship as a functioning member of the church. I dislike the idea of just sending someone packing where they could just go on down the road and wreak their havoc elsewhere!

It's not really something to discuss. The only reason I brought it up was because it was a Southern Baptist church and it was handled immediately, with excessive deference to the woman in some people's eyes. This is not how some on here are making it appear as the case. The elder in question, did repent, last I heard had salvaged his marriage and is getting on OK, and had returned to the church occasionally.

The point is, if you have been a member of a Southern Baptist church, it is more of an association. A very loose association. There is no reporting to the the "SBC" or anything like that. The churches are autonomous in how they run. To blame the SBC who does not really preside over the member churches for conduct out of their scope of reach is a cheap shot. I went to that church for 2 years before I knew it was SBC. The only reason I see to even have it at all is that they can speak in a more cohesive voice on some political matters and there are some tuition advantages for clergy for taking courses at Southern and I assume some other affiliated colleges.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

The point is, if you have been a member of a Southern Baptist church, it is more of an association. A very loose association. There is no reporting to the the "SBC" or anything like that. The churches are autonomous in how they run. To blame the SBC who does not really preside over the member churches for conduct out of their scope of reach is a cheap shot. I went to that church for 2 years before I knew it was SBC. The only reason I see to even have it at all is that they can speak in a more cohesive voice on some political matters and there are some tuition advantages for clergy for taking courses at Southern and I assume some other affiliated colleges.

This is a true and valid point here. Far too often, they treat the SBC as some sort of a "denominational headquarters" with a "Baptist Pope" to whom all of the individual churches are made accountable but such simply is not the case. Each church in the SBC are every bit as autonomous as are the Independent Baptists although they may be tied to certain financial obligations related to building programs or whatever but it seems that the IFB world would have similar snares of which they have to deal with. The big issue here is accountability as each church is autonomous with little to no oversight above the local church level.

In our business, there is a "misconduct registry" we use to screen potential hires for employment in our care agency where any sort of abuse or neglect may be documented thus warning the prospective employer that perhaps they should not hire this person or that it would be prohibited by law to hire them due to certain offenses! I wonder if the SBC has some sort of similar registry of which they could establish a "paper trail" of offenders and keep them from moving on to other congregations where they may continue their predatory behavior? Seems this would be a good start.

 

[Ascetic X]

In our business, there is a "misconduct registry" we use to screen potential hires for employment in our care agency where any sort of abuse or neglect may be documented thus warning the prospective employer that perhaps they should not hire this person or that it would be prohibited by law to hire them due to certain offenses! I wonder if the SBC has some sort of similar registry of which they could establish a "paper trail" of offenders and keep them from moving on to other congregations where they may continue their predatory behavior? Seems this would be a good start.

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) released a "list of accused sexual abusers" in May 2022 containing hundreds of names of pastors and church staff. Maintained for over a decade, this list was made public following an investigation that revealed leaders covered up abuse allegations.

The released document contains over 200 pages and 400+ names of individuals affiliated with the SBC who were credibly accused of sexual abuse, often involving minors.

A formal, searchable "Ministry Check" database, intended to prevent abusers from moving between churches, was initiated but stalled, and in early 2025, reports indicated it was no longer a priority for leadership.

 

[Jerome]

In addition to the 'Church Search' feature that's still on the SBC's website, there used to be a helpful Directory of Ministers.

But in 2019 it was pulled offline at Albert Mohler's urging!

https://wordandway.org/2019/02/15/southern-baptist-minister-list-included-sex-offenders/

 

[DaveXR650]

In our business, there is a "misconduct registry" we use to screen potential hires for employment in our care agency where any sort of abuse or neglect may be documented thus warning the prospective employer that perhaps they should not hire this person or that it would be prohibited by law to hire them due to certain offenses! I wonder if the SBC has some sort of similar registry of which they could establish a "paper trail" of offenders and keep them from moving on to other congregations where they may continue their predatory behavior? Seems this would be a good start.

There ought to be. But even so, it's not hard to check on someone, and no excuse if you don't. And don't get me wrong, I read the same stuff as everyone else and do believe there is a tendency sometimes to suppress things, and even to blame the victim (usually a woman). I honestly blame the modern therapeutic culture as much as the good ole boys network for this. Some clergyman uses his authority and access to vulnerable people for evil purposes and if that isn't bad enough in itself, we then we feel some kind of need to rehabilitate and "heal" the perpetrator by giving him a course of "counseling" and an extended vacation and then, if the victim is not on board with the rehabilitation plan, she is subject to church discipline. So yeah, I know what goes on. I just do not see the connection with the SBC 'ers amending their own constitution without seeking Beth Moore's permission, to do something totally unrelated.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) released a "list of accused sexual abusers" in May 2022 containing hundreds of names of pastors and church staff. Maintained for over a decade, this list was made public following an investigation that revealed leaders covered up abuse allegations.

The released document contains over 200 pages and 400+ names of individuals affiliated with the SBC who were credibly accused of sexual abuse, often involving minors.

A formal, searchable "Ministry Check" database, intended to prevent abusers from moving between churches, was initiated but stalled, and in early 2025, reports indicated it was no longer a priority for leadership.

And this is very shameful and a horrible testimony! To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin!

I could see things from the other side though: what if someone wrongfully accused ended up on the registry? What recourse would they have? Seems like you would need to have some legitimate oversight reaching beyond the local church level.

 

[DaveXR650]

But in 2019 was pulled offline at Albert Mohler's urging!

Thanks for at least posting the article. Did you actually read it? The article says that Al Mohler said to pull the list because it included those with a questionable reputation and therefore if it can't be monitored any better than that it is useless and maybe harmful. Also, it talked about Mohler breaking with C.J. Mahaney over such allegations, instead of hiding them.

What is this, a slander Al Mohler day?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

There ought to be. But even so, it's not hard to check on someone, and no excuse if you don't. And don't get me wrong, I read the same stuff as everyone else and do believe there is a tendency sometimes to suppress things, and even to blame the victim (usually a woman). I honestly blame the modern therapeutic culture as much as the good ole boys network for this. Some clergyman uses his authority and access to vulnerable people for evil purposes and if that isn't bad enough in itself, we then we feel some kind of need to rehabilitate and "heal" the perpetrator by giving him a course of "counseling" and an extended vacation and then, if the victim is not on board with the rehabilitation plan, she is subject to church discipline. So yeah, I know what goes on. I just do not see the connection with the SBC 'ers amending their own constitution without seeking Beth Moore's permission, to do something totally unrelated.

Yeah, I expressed some of these observations in my response to Ascetic X. Sinful men will always try to exploit such things and use them to their advantage! If anyone wants to see how our freedom and liberties will be eroded, this is a stellar example!

And I could see how Beth Moore would see it to her advantage to piggy back one issue upon another! This is also how bad legislation is often passed in congress isn't it?

 

[DaveXR650]

And I could see how Beth Moore would see it to her advantage to piggy back one issue upon another! This is also how bad legislation is often passed in congress isn't it?

I don't know much about Beth Moore. I used to have a long commute and I liked listening to the program by I think Kay Author, and I also listened to Elizabeth Elliott whenever she was on. I would have been happy any time to have them come and be the main speaker at a church I was at. I do not think they should have been or ever wanted to be pastors of a church, even though I admit they were far more qualified than many pastors working today.

Someone mentioned Wade Burleson in another post. I have one of his books and actually agree with him in a lot of areas. Women are essential if a church is to function. They are better at 90% of the practical and helping ministries, they know what's going on, they care for people better and as a deacon, I rely and yes, defer to them often. I think they should be allowed to be full fledged deacons as a matter of fact. The main reason they shouldn't be pastors is that we men would then immediately slough off and drift away and spend our time doing stupid things instead of our duties. I think it's actually our limitations as men that is the reason for not having women pastors.

 

[Jerome]

Willy Rice, candidate for SBC President at next week's Annual Meeting.

The Ministerial Association at Samford University had many more members than when Albert Mohler was in it years before. Can you spot Willy?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I don't know much about Beth Moore. I used to have a long commute and I liked listening to the program by I think Kay Author, and I also listened to Elizabeth Elliott whenever she was on. I would have been happy any time to have them come and be the main speaker at a church I was at. I do not think they should have been or ever wanted to be pastors of a church, even though I admit they were far more qualified than many pastors working today.

Someone mentioned Wade Burleson in another post. I have one of his books and actually agree with him in a lot of areas. Women are essential if a church is to function. They are better at 90% of the practical and helping ministries, they know what's going on, they care for people better and as a deacon, I rely and yes, defer to them often. I think they should be allowed to be full fledged deacons as a matter of fact. The main reason they shouldn't be pastors is that we men would then immediately slough off and drift away and spend our time doing stupid things instead of our duties. I think it's actually our limitations as men that is the reason for not having women pastors.

Women deacons is not something I would forbid although I would lean more towards the women in 1 Tim 3 being the wives of deacons and that the two would be performing the roles of the deacon side-by side. I currently serve on our board of deacons and my wife is right there with me. I like the way this 9-Marks guy (Matt Smethurst) qualifies it saying that if a church has a plurality of elders who handle everything pertaining to oversight, and a deacon operates purely from a servant perspective (diaconate), then they can be permitted to serve as deacons although I think it would be shameful if she served as a deacon and her husband did not. You also have an interesting "third office" of a widow and I could see how widows would serve in a church very much in the same way that a deacon would serve and there are a couple of ladies in our church who would fit this category although they do not bear the official "Title" One of these dear ladies is a widowed "Pastor's wife" and she has a very fruitful ministry working with the women of our church as well as in the Philippines where she is from. She is a true treasure to our church!

On the other hand, many churches only have deacons and no board of elders and in such a scenario, the deacons often take on responsibilities that would normally pertain to elders and in such a congregation, it would not be a good idea to appoint women as deacons and I do believe there is good wisdom here.

 

[canadyjd]

There two issues being interconnected actually shouldn’t be.

1. Should women be allowed by the local church to serve with authority over men (Pastors). The answer from scripture is no.

2. Should leadership in a local church be held accountable for instances of misconduct. The answer from scripture is yes.

The question at the convention level is should fellowship continue with any church failing to follow scripture in these areas.

Each church must decide on its own.

Peace to you

 

[Armchair Apologist]

There two issues being interconnected actually shouldn’t be.

1. Should women be allowed by the local church to serve with authority over men (Pastors). The answer from scripture is no.

2. Should leadership in a local church be held accountable for instances of misconduct. The answer from scripture is yes.

The question at the convention level is should fellowship continue with any church failing to follow scripture in these areas.

Each church must decide on its own.

Peace to you

They are trying to set it up so that if you agree with one, you agree with the other as well. If you disagree with one, you also disagree with the other. Same thing goes on with our crooked politicians in congress who add objectionable "riders" onto otherwise good bills!