Is the Church Irrelevant?

[Ben1445]

You are really off your rocker if you concluded that setting someone else's picture as an avatar makes them an idol.

I have my own doubts about you. I have yet to find anyone who idolizes a roof over their head in the rain.
Have a seat in the red chair and tell me… are they with you now??

Seriously though, I don’t know anyone who thinks the church is a building that Jesus died to save.

 

[th1bill]

Sir, I don't have any beef with you, nor do I wish to have any.

I have none with you but you are like a bull in a china closet and if you stop, read and think objectively about your post before you hit the button I believe all here will respond better to what you offer.

 

[th1bill]

You are really off your rocker if you concluded that setting someone else's picture as an avatar makes them an idol.

My dad taught me, quite correctly, that in the eyes of the observer we become who we are observed to be with. Hint: I will never be seen flying an avatar of Hitler even though I love and endear my German grandfather.

 

[Aaron]

Jesus went into the synagogues. Even preached from their pulpits. So the point is moot. The churches can have their buildings. And where the Lord's Table was being abused, Paul said, Don't you have your own houses to eat and drink in? Meaning, they were meeting somewhere as a church other than their own houses.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Stopgap]

I have my own doubts about you.

Get in line, buddy boy.

I have yet to find anyone who idolizes a roof over their head in the rain.

A roof can be as simple as a metal sheet placed over some wooden posts.

The problem lies with raising hundreds of thousands of dollars and putting it into the cost of a roof, as well as the tens of thousands of dollars of annual maintenance that could otherwise be given to a Haitian refugee camp, for instance.

 

[Stopgap]

I have none with you but you are like a bull in a china closet and if you stop, read and think objectively about your post before you hit the button I believe all here will respond better to what you offer.

I've studied this issue for a long time. Nobody has yet presented a meaningful argument, other than throwing out verses that are ambiguous in meaning. They are vain attempts meant to justify holding onto a tradition.

 

[Stopgap]

Jesus went into the synagogues. Even preached from their pulpits. So the point is moot.

The Levitical laws of the Old Covenant were still in effect before His death, which meant the physical structures called synagogues still had relevance. We are under the New Covenant now, so the point is moot.

Meaning, they were meeting somewhere as a church other than their own houses.

For all we know, it could very well have been at the public park over by 8th Street.

 

[Aaron]

The Levitical laws of the Old Covenant were still in effect before His death, which meant the physical structures called synagogues still had relevance. We are under the New Covenant now, so the point is moot.

Nothing about synagogue in the law. In fact, it wasn't what the early Israelites practiced at all.

 

[Stopgap]

Nothing about synagogue in the law.

Building physical structures was clearly the pattern of the OT. That's why there was the tabernacle. That's why there was Solomon's Temple. We've done away with those things.

 

[Aaron]

There was nothing about a temple either. In a vast array of aspects, Solomon added to and embellished on the divine pattern delivered to Moses.

But when the cloud of God’s glory filled the temple on its dedication, then it was known that it was acceptable.

The building of synagogues was a custom born of the Jews in exile. It is where they gathered as a community to hear the teaching of the law and hold their courts. It was a practice that was maintained when they were regathered and the Temple was rebuilt.

And the fact that Jesus entered and practiced in community with them, it was a hallowed and natural outgrowth of their religion.

It's the same with the Church, which is Israel now.

 

[Aaron]

Building physical structures was clearly the pattern of the OT. That's why there was the tabernacle. That's why there was Solomon's Temple. We've done away with those things.

Where were you baptized?

 

[Stopgap]

Where were you baptized?

In the ocean.

 

[Ben1445]

Get in line, buddy boy.



A roof can be as simple as a metal sheet placed over some wooden posts.

The problem lies with raising hundreds of thousands of dollars and putting it into the cost of a roof, as well as the tens of thousands of dollars of annual maintenance that could otherwise be given to a Haitian refugee camp, for instance.

Tell them not to idolize shelter like the church should not either and go sing in the desert.

That is my take away from what you teach.

 

[th1bill]

I've studied this issue for a long time. Nobody has yet presented a meaningful argument, other than throwing out verses that are ambiguous in meaning. They are vain attempts meant to justify holding onto a tradition.

I note that you did not.

 

[Ben1445]

Building physical structures was clearly the pattern of the OT. That's why there was the tabernacle. That's why there was Solomon's Temple. We've done away with those things.

Structures, shelter, these things are not OT constructs. They are products of normal human behavior since Babel at least. God teaches us that we need shelter.
And I appreciate the walls and windows on the pole barn that keep me healthy enough to support others by giving to them. Walls and windows keep out mosquitoes, flies, bats, and other disease carriers so my life expectancy is extended and my money available to be given away rather than spent on doctors. And the best part of it all is that it is common practice to live in a house and meet within walls so that the benefits outweigh the risks of not meeting in a building, and there are plenty of empty churches. So there are forsaken idols all over the nation that once housed active Christians who were doing the Lord’s work. A few generations later, people lose sight of God and they leave the building. The building is not the idol to worry about. Self is the problem, not brick and mortar.

 

[Ben1445]

Building physical structures was clearly the pattern of the OT. … We've done away with those things.

You don’t use structures?
You go to the outdoor markets?
You sleep in tents and caves?

I don’t think so.

You go out for coffee with your buddies. Coffee is expensive bought from restaurants and coffee shops. Wouldn’t that money be better spent on Haitian refugees who need food?

But everyone will have their own pet purchases and claim their neighbors are worshipping idols.

I don’t care if you buy coffee for $20 a cup so long as it is your own money.

But you came here accusing church goers of wasting money and idolizing buildings. So I don’t think you measure up to your own standards.

 

[Stopgap]

Tell them not to idolize shelter like the church should not either and go sing in the desert.

That is my take away from what you teach.

The way you attempt to justify your idolatry by comparing apples to oranges is truly hilarious.

The building is not the idol to worry about. Self is the problem, not brick and mortar.

The problem is the abuse of finances that go along with having a dedicated building for church gatherings. Money is the root of all evil, in case you didn't hear.

You go out for coffee with your buddies. Coffee is expensive bought from restaurants and coffee shops. Wouldn’t that money be better spent on Haitian refugees who need food?

I said they can meet at coffee shops. I dislike coffee, so no, I don't waste money on it. You are just not using your head at all if you think that a $5 cup of coffee is comparable to the $1.2 trillion dollar industry that organized Christianity has become in the United States.

But you came here accusing church goers of wasting money and idolizing buildings. So I don’t think you measure up to your own standards.

If you are perfectly fine with throwing your money away, then go ahead and do it. It's a free country!

The Bible says that if a man is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject him. I have gone over these matters with you more than two times now. At this point, I would be perfectly justified in regarding you as a publican and a heathen.

 

[Stopgap]

I note that you did not.

Sir, I respect you as my elder, and I do not wish to argue with you about this further.

 

[Ben1445]

The way you attempt to justify your idolatry by comparing apples to oranges is truly hilarious.

It was shelter for us and shelter for them. That seems like an honest comparison to me. Why do they need shelter if I don’t? Why would I strap them down with maintenance of a building they can’t afford to build?

It’s apples to apples.

The problem is the abuse of finances that go along with having a dedicated building for church gatherings. Money is the root of all evil, in case you didn't hear.

And here you show your ignorance.

It is the love of money that is the root of all evil. Otherwise you may fault Jesus with supplying Peter with the root of evil out of the fish’s mouth.

I said one can meet at coffee shops. I dislike coffee, so no, I don't waste money on it.

It is your version of acceptable. It makes no difference if you do it or not.

But again, a $5 cup of coffee doesn't compare to the $1.2 trillion dollar industry that organized Christianity has turned into in the United States.

Clearly we don’t go to the same churches.

If you are perfectly fine with throwing your money away, then go ahead and do it. It's a free country!

You are happy to spend your money on yourself. Be honest now, how much have you spent on Haitian refugees, since you brought it up.

And don’t go and hurry up to donate to some trillion dollar donation taking industry that might get 20% of your donation to the people who they claim to help.

The Bible says that if a man is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject him. I have gone over these matters with you more than two times now. At this point, I'm perfectly justified in regarding you as a publican and a heathen.

Because you have judged my financial situation without any real knowledge of it I am a publican and a heathen?

Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it,it is folly and shame unto him.


If going into a church building makes me a heathen heretic, well I fit your definition. But I don’t see how advocating for someone else to have shelter when you are telling me I should not is an intelligent argument.

I don’t appreciate social justice warriors much. In my experience, they think that their much speaking will move others to do what they do little of themselves. They don’t solve problems, they complain about them. And they think they are accomplishing something when the only thing they are doing is slowing down the people who actually are accomplishing something.

 

[Stopgap]

Be honest now, how much have you spent on Haitian refugees, since you brought it up.

Maybe I donate to Haitian refugees; maybe I donate to some other cause. As I said before, I don't answer to you, so it's none of your business!

Because you have judged my financial situation without any real knowledge of it I am a publican and a heathen?

I never claimed to know your financial situation, but encouraging others to follow your lead so as to not be good stewards with finances is highly problematic.

If going into a church building makes me a heathen heretic, well I fit your definition.

It's the idolatry of the building that makes one a heretic. How many times do I have to go over this?

I don’t appreciate social justice warriors much. In my experience, they think that their much speaking will move others to do what they do little of themselves. They don’t solve problems, they complain about them.

Well, at least we're in agreement there. One doesn't really stand for social justice unless they practice what they preach.