What Should Christians Believe about the Causes of Demon Possession?

[sojourner4Christ]

You have removed words that I had in what I wrote that falsify your statement.

Your comment was parsed for the benefit of those with short attention spans. The gist of your comment, however, was not.

Notice that I specified that God has not revealed specific information...

I do not know of a single passage that you can point to in Scripture that explicitly connects [sin] to a specific person or people becoming demon possessed.

Scripture itself does not seem to directly and explicitly connect these specific sinful things to demon possession for specific people mentioned in Scripture.

...and I told you directly and explicitly why that is so:

The Holy Bible doesn't provide a step-by-step manual on how someone becomes demon-possessed. And that's a good thing, because plenty of wannabee's would be referencing it in their attempts to gain power. Rather, if one wants to know the truth, one must read the truth - i.e. the Holy Bible in its totality.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mat. 11).

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

my point is that Christians have no basis to hold that such-and-such occult practices that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible cannot cause demon possession because the Bible does not say that those things can cause demon possession.

In the Holy Bible, there are descriptions of "occult practices" that lead people away from God. How far away? Far enough to become lost and given over to Satan.

Also, the flippant and flagrant use of the phrase "demon possession," as explained earlier, displays a certain naivete that compromises the ostensible gist of the OP.

The OP:

The NT indisputably and emphatically reveals the reality of demon possession. Concerning those people who were demon possessed, one of two things had to have been true: (1) They were born demon possessed or (2) they became demon possessed at some later point in their lives.

The NT does not seem to provide any definitive information to establish that any people were born demon possessed. Taking that they were possessed at some later point in their lives, what caused them to become possessed?

The question has been answered. But because you insist on being right, rather than on possibly learning something, you have trashed your own OP.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

In the Holy Bible, there are descriptions of "occult practices" that lead people away from God. How far away? Far enough to become lost and given over to Satan.

Also, the flippant and flagrant use of the phrase "demon possession," as explained earlier, displays a certain naivete that compromises the ostensible gist of the OP.

The OP:

The question has been answered. But because you insist on being right, rather than on possibly learning something, you have trashed your own OP.

In actuality, the Bible presents almost no specifics or details about how the occultists engaged in the actual occult practices that the Bible directly talks about. Many Christians wrongly take such lack of specific information and argue that other things that are not talked about in the Bible at all cannot and do not lead to demonic influence or possession.

Yes, I continue to use the term "possession" because I do not agree with your understanding of what the Bible reveals about that information. Challenging your treatment of that concept requires careful study that takes time. When I have completed my own in-depth study of that subject, I will respond further to your claims.

You claim to be a "deliverance minister." I do not see that term anywhere in the Bible. Apparently, you think that it is legitimate for you to use terminology that the Bible doesn't use for a "ministry" that the Bible does not talk about.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

In the Holy Bible, there are descriptions of "occult practices" that lead people away from God. How far away? Far enough to become lost and given over to Satan.

You say that people "become lost" through engaging in "'occult practices' that lead people away from God." If your statements mean that you think that people who are truly born again and saved by God can "become lost and [be] given over to Satan," you are teaching what is wrong.

No one who is truly saved can become lost ever again.

 

[Van]

[quoter=Van]
If we read Mark 5:1 to Mark 5:20 we find the story of a "demon possessed man." He was confronted by Jesus and the demon possession was ended. Thus the cause was in part to demonstrate Jesus was who He said He was, by performing sign and wonder miracles. [/quote]

Well, the man was not actually "confronted by Jesus." Rather, the man ran to Jesus! IOW, the man was cognizant enough, apart from the influence of the devils within him, to realize that Jesus had the authority necessary to free him; all was not lost!

v. 6 - But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshiped him

I will tell you with certainty, and from experience with deliverance, that devils do not run to Jesus and worship him! The man first ran to Jesus, then the devils within the man freaked out (aka manifested) at the appearance of Jesus.

1) Jesus commanded the demon(s) to come out of the man.

2) Scripture does not say why the man ran to Jesus,

3) The demon(s) might have compelled the man as a ploy, conjecture is simply conjecture.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

[quoter=Van]
If we read Mark 5:1 to Mark 5:20 we find the story of a "demon possessed man." He was confronted by Jesus and the demon possession was ended. Thus the cause was in part to demonstrate Jesus was who He said He was, by performing sign and wonder miracles.

1) Jesus commanded the demon(s) to come out of the man.

2) Scripture does not say why the man ran to Jesus,

3) The demon(s) might have compelled the man as a ploy, conjecture is simply conjecture.
[/QUOTE]

You are mistaken. I did not reply with these remarks. Someone else did: sojourner4Christ

 

[Van]

1) Jesus commanded the demon(s) to come out of the man.

2) Scripture does not say why the man ran to Jesus,

3) The demon(s) might have compelled the man as a ploy, conjecture is simply conjecture.

You are mistaken. I did not reply with these remarks. Someone else did: sojourner4Christ
[/QUOTE]
I seem to be making more and more errors, I am so sorry I misrepresented you with my blatantly false post.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are mistaken. I did not reply with these remarks. Someone else did: sojourner4Christ

I seem to be making more and more errors, I am so sorry I misrepresented you with my blatantly false post.
[/QUOTE]
It's ok. Mistakes happen.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Here is some of Jesus' own teaching about demon possession:

Luke 11:14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. 15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. 16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. 18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. 19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. 21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. 23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. 24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. 25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

In this teaching, Jesus in effect declares that what He as the ultimate strong Man (who was also fully God) was doing was overcoming Satan and taking his (Satan's) "goods" from him.

Speaking of the deliverance of people from demon possession as delivering them from captivity by Satan supports the view that they were Satan's possessions in the sense that they were his captives. When people are captives of other people or of demons, they are in effect the possessions of those people or demons who have taken them captive and hold them captive.

Demon possession with reference to unbelievers is legitimate biblical terminology, and it is more than just demonic control.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

You claim to be a "deliverance minister." I do not see that term anywhere in the Bible. Apparently, you think that it is legitimate for you to use terminology that the Bible doesn't use for a "ministry" that the Bible does not talk about.

Ignorance is no excuse.

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14)

The NT features Jesus and his apostles frequently casting out demons and healing the oppressed, which serves as the foundational precedent for modern deliverance practices.

No one who is truly saved can become lost ever again.

...another internally inconsistent doctrine for another thread.

Scripture does not say why the man ran to Jesus,

Why have you "run to Jesus"? It's obvious.

Demon possession with reference to unbelievers is legitimate biblical terminology, and it is more than just demonic control.

Regardless, because you don't comprehend the scriptural definition of "possession," your once-promising thread is a dud.

Challenging your treatment of that concept requires careful study that takes time. When I have completed my own in-depth study of that subject, I will respond further to your claims.

Great. Perhaps I will see you then.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Regardless, because you don't comprehend the scriptural definition of "possession," your once-promising thread is a dud.

On the contrary, it is you who has set forth an understanding of the Greek verb δαιμονίζομαι that is an understanding that is wanting.

The standard Greek lexicon, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition" (BDAG), gives only one definition for that word: " be possessed by a hostile spirit" (p. 209).

Louw and Nida's seminal work, "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains Vol. 1," similarly and tellingly provides only one meaning for that word: "to be possessed by a demon" (12. 41; p. 147).

Both of these key biblical Greek resources often provide multiple senses in which a word is to be understood when doing so is warranted, but tellingly, neither one provides any other senses for this Greek verb.

Yet, you, in effect, set yourself forth as an expert in biblical Greek who would teach God's people that because you do not see the Greek word for "possession" specifically used in the Greek NT to speak of demon possession, the concept of possession is not in view when the NT uses this Greek verb.

You are wrong in your reasoning in this manner about the lack of a particular Greek word being used to denote a concept in the Greek NT. Biblical Greek does not have to use a particular word to communicate a concept.

 

[Ascetic X]

It is not edifying to ponder and discuss how a person gets demon possessed.

It is enough to know that people should avoid the occult.

This topic is similar to curiosity about spells, pagan rituals, and satanist practices.

Deuteronomy 12:29,30

When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after they are destroyed from before thee, and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? Even so will I do likewise.’

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

It is not edifying to ponder and discuss how a person gets demon possessed.

It is enough to know that people should avoid the occult.

This topic is similar to curiosity about spells, pagan rituals, and satanist practices.

Deuteronomy 12:29,30

When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after they are destroyed from before thee, and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? Even so will I do likewise.’

It is edifying and essential to study in depth what God has revealed in His Word (2 Tim. 3:16-17). Properly answering faulty Christian views and reasoning requires thorough, in-depth study of what God has said.

 

[Ascetic X]

It is edifying and essential to study in depth what God has revealed in His Word (2 Tim. 3:16-17). Properly answering faulty Christian views and reasoning requires thorough, in-depth study of what God has said.

All you want to talk and post about is demons. That is not spiritually healthy.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

All you want to talk and post about is demons. That is not spiritually healthy.

It is vital to proper spiritual health that Christians study in depth what God has revealed in His Word about demonology so that they can answer false Christian views, claims, and reasoning about things that mistaken Christians say do not and cannot lead to demonic influence and possession because the Bible does not say directly that those things can lead to demonic influence and possession.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

King Manasseh was a horrifically wicked king over God’s people:

2 Kings 21:5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD. 6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. 7 And he set a graven image of the grove that he had made in the house, of which the LORD said to David, and to Solomon his son, In this house, and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all tribes of Israel, will I put my name for ever:

2 Kings 21:9 But they hearkened not: and Manasseh seduced them to do more evil than did the nations whom the LORD destroyed before the children of Israel.

2 Kings 21:11 Because Manasseh king of Judah hath done these abominations, and hath done wickedly above all that the Amorites did, which were before him, and hath made Judah also to sin with his idols:

In spite of all that God has revealed about the wickedness of Manasseh, including his being an exceedingly wicked idolater and his being involved in multiple occult practices, the Spirit does not say anything about his ever being possessed by a demon.

If direct biblical statement is required for us to know who was and was not demon possessed, we would have to say that he was not ever possessed. If so, we would have to understand that even exceedingly wicked involvement in idolatry and the occult does not guarantee that a person necessarily will become demon possessed by doing so.

Was king Manasseh ever demon possessed? If he was, why did the Spirit never tell us that he was?

If he was not ever possessed, what does that teach us about the causes of demon possession?

 

[Van]

SNIP
Van said: "Scripture does not say why the man ran to Jesus,
S4C said:
Why have you "run to Jesus"? It's obvious.
SNIP

You did not answer the question, but changed the subject to my behavior.

It was your conjecture as to why the demon(s) possessed man ran to Jesus, and we should stick with what scripture actually says. I said Jesus confronted the man, since He commanded the demon(s) to leave him. You objected. Perhaps I should have said Jesus confronted the demon(s that possessed the man.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

It was your conjecture as to why the demon(s) possessed man ran to Jesus, and we should stick with what scripture actually says.

You've missed the chronology and so do not discern.

The order of events:

verses 1 and 2 - Is a simple description of Jesus' arrival.
verses 3 thru 5 - Is a one-sentence summation of all the PAST satanic involvements of the man up to that point in time.
verse 6 - Is a transition that begins with the word But, which means nevertheless, yet, etc. IOW, a contrast is being made between the satanic stuff he HAD ALREADY experienced, and the act of contrition he was ABOUT TO do.

But, when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him. - v. 6.

The solution to your dilemma is simple: Read each verse in the Holy Bible that contains the word for worship (there are 54 of them here, so it's not difficult). Then you may discern what is taking place here. Or, you can ignore this advice and continue to seek the approbation of men in their world of opinion.

I said Jesus confronted the man...

Nowhere in the Holy Bible does it say that. Rather, the guy ran to Jesus.

...since He commanded the demon(s) to leave him.

That was AFTER the man ran to him, as detailed with scripture above.

And this is precisely what happens when demons are confronted with Jesus or with one operating under the authority of Jesus. It's what we call "manifesting," as the demons are terrified of the blood of Jesus, of what the blood of Jesus represents to them. They "freak out."

If we let scripture interpret scripture, the apparent problems resolve.

3) The demon(s) might have compelled the man as a ploy

Why? ...if only to be cast out from their home? Regardless, demons do not approach the Most High for ANY thing - they HIDE from him and his ministers. That's how those creatures operate. Read your Holy Bible.

All you want to talk and post about is demons. That is not spiritually healthy.

What Ascetic X is referring to is due to your incessant use of "possession" - as a kind of end-all term for something you do not fully understand. That is a serious mistake and will always lead you astray on this subject.

It is not edifying to ponder and discuss how a person gets demon possessed.

It is enough to know that people should avoid the occult.

This topic is similar to curiosity about spells, pagan rituals, and satanist practices.

Yes, because in the absence of genuine spiritual authority, Satan will exploit you for your curiosity.

First, we crawl, then we walk, then we run. Satan has weaponized his spirituality; we need to weaponized ours. Presently, most folks couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Tim. 3:14-15)

Notice that even a child understands the holy scriptures -- no middlemen wanna-be ‘scholars’ required!

The OP has not yet addressed the major issue that confounds him re: Spiritual Warfare 101. And so, I would agree with Ascetic X that further discussion is neither profitable nor wise.

Properly answering faulty Christian views and reasoning requires thorough, in-depth study of what God has said.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. (Mat. 7).

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. (Mat. 7).

This is an expected response from someone who cannot answer factual information with actual in-depth responses, so he has to resort to ad hominem instead.

The fact stands that your assertions about the Greek verb that has been rendered as "demon possessed" etc. are not a sound understanding of biblical Greek. In fact, your claims in that regard are a mishandling of Scripture.

Others have also rightly addressed the faulty teachings of "deliverance theology":

Can Christians Be Demon Possessed? A Biblical Response to Deliverance Theology

Do Demons Have Legal Rights to Christians?

Do Demons Have Legal Rights to Christians? by Dawn Hill new in our latest issue of Theology for Life.

servantsofgrace.org

Disclaimer: My sharing these two articles from this source does not mean that I endorse the sources in everything that they say or even in everything that they say in these articles.

In addition, you, in effect, have come on this thread and commented in ways that have significantly redirected the discussion away from the stated subject to a discussion of what you want to talk about, which is not proper conduct. You should start your own thread to set forth your views about what demons can and cannot do to Christians, which is a topic that is not the subject of this thread.

 

[Ascetic X]

In addition, you, in effect, have come on this thread and commented in ways that have significantly redirected the discussion away from the stated subject to a discussion of what you want to talk about, which is not proper conduct. You should start your own thread to set forth your views about what demons can and cannot do to Christians, which is a topic that is not the subject of this thread.

Your thread title is “What Should Christians Believe about the Causes of Demon Possession?”

So related issues can come up and not be off topic.

You must not have much experience with online discussion forums.

I doubt you will ever discuss anything but demons, demons, demons.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

Jesus permanently delivered this boy from the demon's ever being able to enter him again. Having been once delivered by Christ, no demon could have ever entered him again.

Those whom God takes out of the kingdom of darkness and puts them into the kingdom of His dear Son can never and will never be returned to the kingdom of darkness because they somehow supposedly have fallen from grace and lost their salvation. Those whom God saves are kept by the power of God and can never be unsaved again.