Divine Justice

[DaveXR650]

Jesus IS the propitiation. That is what I think you are missing. In Him we escape the wrath to come. "He Himself is the Propitiation". God set Him forth as a Propitiation.

But him being the propitiation is because of his death and shedding of his blood for our sins. That is how he bore our sins in his body. Just his being himself, or being perfectly qualified doesn't work. That's what I was referring to earlier which you then mocked here with this reply:

I am not sure where you read that Jesus' life - the Incarnation without the crucifixion - was sufficient. Is that a form of Moral Influence? I do not hold that theory (Moral Influence or any theory that holds anything but the blood of Christ paid). I almost asked for the theory so I could be aware of it, but changed my mind. I do not want to know.

You will never get it so you can continue with Martin.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, God is not unjust. He did not cause Christ's "oppression", He dies not punish the Just, and He does not clear the guilty.

God did cause Christ's oppression as I have shown very clearly. That He did not personally scourge Christ or hammer the nails in does not mean that He was entirely responsible for it.
But you are right that God is not unjust, that He does not punish the just and that He does not clear the guilty.
How that is done remains to be seen on this thread, although it is covered extensively in a variety of books and commentaries, and, of course, the Bible. I will deal with this as soon as I have time.

 

[JonC]

But him being the propitiation is because of his death and shedding of his blood for our sins. That is how he bore our sins in his body. Just his being himself, or being perfectly qualified doesn't work. That's what I was referring to earlier which you then mocked here with this reply:

You will never get it so you can continue with Martin.

I understand what you are saying. You forget that for most pf my life I held PSA as correct. But you are missing my point.

I agree that God setting Him forth as a propitiation is God sending His Son as an offering. I never said that Jesus is the Propitiation because He is righteous.

You are trying to create differences where differences do not exist. That is why I questioned where the idea that we were saved by Jesus being righteous rather than His sacrifice csme from. You introduced that idea into our conversationa few posts ago.

God setting forth Christ as a Propitiation is the crucifixion. It is His blood shed for us. But God setting forth His Son as a Propitiation is not God punishing Jesus.

Jesus bore our sins bodily, shared our humanity, was like one of us. He suffered death because of our sins, the death that sin produces as a wage. All flesh has been sold under sin.

I was not mocking you, BTW. I was curious as to where that theory came from (I was not saying you held that view yourself).

 

[JonC]

God did cause Christ's oppression as I have shown very clearly.

I know you have said that God caused Jesus' oppression. The problem is this by definition makes God unjust.

Oppression is (by definition) an unjust exercise of power. Hitler oppressed Jewish people. Punishing the innocent woukd be oppression (unjust) with the one doing the punishment an oppressor.

You define God as an Oppressor (one who uses power unjustly to crush or subdue).

This is not a character trait of God. So you have to defend exactly what made God sin, what made Him unrighteous.

Scripture offers a better explanation. It wss God's predetermined plan, His will, that Christ suffered injustice. But not God's actions (God is righteous and just).

 

[JonC]

@DaveXR650

Our disagreement is not over whether Christ is righteous. I think we both agree He is. Our disagreement is not over the idea that Christ’s righteousness alone was enough to save (without the Cross) as neither of us believe that. I am trying to keep from going on these tangents and keep focused on the Atonement and the differences between our views.

I believe that God laid our iniquity on Christ, it was His will to “crush” Him, that He bore our sins bodily, that He shared in our humanity, that He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, was made sin for us, shared in our infirmity, was made like us in every way but did not sin.

God set Christ forth as a Propitiation in His blood to be received by faith. His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness. He died under the powers of evil, at the hands of wicked men, by unjust judgment (oppression), dying once for all that He would destroy the power of the one who holds the power of death (that is Satan), God raised Him from the dead, vindicated Him against the unjust punishment of the Cross, raised Him high and lifted up and greatly exalted.

The difference between our positions is not propitiation (we both believe that in Him we escape the wrath to come). The difference is not the necessity of the Cross. We both believe the Cross was necessary for our salvation.

When I say that justice is righteousness and point to Christ’s righteousness, I am not saying that Christ’s righteousness without Him taking on the flesh (the flesh is sold under bondage) and without the Cross saves us. But it does mean that Jesus is righteous. He is just. What we needed was not Jesus to be righteous but that we share in His righteousness. That is what saves us from wrath, for on the day of wrath we will be righteous, we will be conformed to His image, we will have been made new creations, we will be glorified in Him.

We needed a Righteous Savor to share in our human condition (to be made flesh, made sin, for us) so that being vindicated and becoming a life giving spirit we could share in His righteousness. Just as Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh we will be made in His likeness. That is salvation, not punishment satisfying justice.

We cannot approach the Atonement from the standpoint of the Father, viewing our salvation as the Father punishing sins to satisfy His wrath. We have to approach the Atonement from the standpoint of Jesus Christ, viewing our salvation as His work as we die to sin, die to the flesh, die with Christ so that we may be made alive in Him.