Independent Baptist churches vs Anabaptists

[Jerome]

Historical correction for some of the smack talk in this thread:

The Trail of Blood was published by Ashland Avenue Baptist Church under pastor Clarence Walker, who was a Calvinist!

And its author J. M. Carroll was a Southern Baptist!

 

[Jerome]

I still consider myself "Independent" Baptist from a philosophical standpoint. I am member of a church that happens to be SBC but I exercise ecclesiastical separation from all of the SBC nonsense

Please keep saying that loudly in your Convention church, especially when the Southern Baptist Dom is there [a Southern Baptist local Association's Director of Missions]. Or you might hear a new title that such Convention men use: Ms (Mission Strategist).

 

[Jerome]

the two most certainly are no [sic] the same and there is little resemblance today between an Anabaptist congregation (Mennonite, Amish, Brethren, Etc.) and Independent Baptists or any Baptist for that matter.

Southern Baptist Seminary President Albert Mohler in The Anabaptists and Contemporary Baptists: Restoring New Testament Christianity [Broadman & Holman, 2013], (preface):

"I stand indebted to the Radical Reformation in ways that cannot fully be calculated. Though Reformed in soteriology, I recognize that my decidedly Baptist ecclesiology has far more in common with the Anabaptists. I stand with the Anabaptists in their insistence on the baptism of believers only and the necessity of the personal confession of faith in Christ. I reject Calvin’s understanding of church and state and side without apology with those who died at the hands of those used the states as an instrument of the church, or the church as an instrument of the state. I stand with them on the sole final authority of Scripture, even when it means standings against the received tradition."

 

[Jerome]

Not sure what you mean by "anti-creedalism." I know of no Independent Baptists who teach that or use that phrase.

Except when they get all fired up singing "My faith has found a resting place, not in device nor creed!" out of Soul-stirring Songs & Hymns?

 

[Jerome]

Paul Chappell teaches it and I am not sure you could be any more "Mainstream IFB" than him! When I joined Lancaster Baptist back in the 1990s, one of the items in my new members packet was a copy of "The Trail of Blood"

Chappell misidentifies its author here. Oh brother.

 

[jakethebaptist]

Except when they get all fired up singing "My faith has found a resting place, not in device nor creed!" out of Soul-stirring Songs & Hymns?

https://hymnary.org/text/my_faith_has_found_a_resting_place
Written by a Reformed person.

 

[Jerome]

Oh, she's a person?

 

[John of Japan]

Point taken.

 

[Ben1445]

Historical correction for some of the smack talk in this thread:

The Trail of Blood was published by Ashland Avenue Baptist Church under pastor Clarence Walker, who was a Calvinist!

That is a good laugh.

 

[Marooncat79]

No.

1. There is no historical congruence. When you look at the histories, they do not intersect. For example, none of the 17th century English Baptist pastors came from or were connected to the Anabaptists.
2. Many of the Anabaptists had doctrines contradictory to the Baptist distinctives. For example, there were Anabaptists who believed in sprinklying.
3. The Anabaptist traditions still existing are not Baptistic: Mennonites & Amish.

They also were on cessationists and

 

[John of Japan]

I do believe I said "many" and not "all" here, didn't I?

Nope. You used the generic "Independent Baptists."

I still consider myself "Independent" Baptist from a philosophical standpoint. I am member of a church that happens to be SBC but I exercise ecclesiastical separation from all of the SBC nonsense as I do certain "Nutcases" from the IFB world. I don't think we are all that different, we could probably hang out together at a Starbucks or have lunch at a McDonalds. The Seminary I graduated from is affiliated with the BBFI so we have that as well.

That's better.

I am glad to hear that but I can attest that Paul Chappell teaches it and I am not sure you could be any more "Mainstream IFB" than him! When I joined Lancaster Baptist back in the 1990s, one of the items in my new members packet was a copy of "The Trail of Blood" by J.M. Carroll. Perhaps he changed his position since then but I have not had any affilliation for about 25 years.

I did not use the term "mainstream." I think IFBs are two independent to have a "mainstream!"

If you are holding to the English Baptist origin, then I would say that this is markedly different from the IFB world of which I was familiar! My understanding though is that the General Baptists were influenced somewhat by the Anabaptists but I would not consider them direct descendents. Anabaptists and Baptists are both influenced by Zwingli (memorial view of Lord's Table) so I would not deny the things that Baptists and Anabaptists have in common. Baptists in England came from the non-conformist and Free-Church groups along with the Puritans so I am not exactly certain how I would diagram this out on a "family tree" diagram.

Of course there was influence. But there were no direct connections. No early Baptist pastor or other leader I know of came from the Anabaptists.

Really? Many would do so even if it wasn't part of their sermon topic just to let you know they were not some sort of "Pussy-footing compromiser!" My point though was that certain of my Independent Baptist buddies actually think that Reformed fold are not much better than Roman Catholics and they were the ones in the "crosshairs" of the post I had made. Reformed people who were of the established "state churches" of their day did persecute the Anabaptists but Thomas Muntzer and the Zwickau Prophets were wreaking their havoc as well!

My crowd doesn't preach that way. We're more exegetical. I just finished a course, "Preaching Prophetic Themes," and it was all exegetical.

Catholic teaching ought to be opposed. The reason why so many Baptists are becoming Roman Catholic (And Mormon, and Jehovah Witness, etc.) is because Baptists preachers are often too lazy to teach their people how to study the scriptures for themselves and are therefore vulnerable to all of the cults. Fact of the matter is that certain Baptist preachers are biblically illiterate themselves! Not sure how to soften this one and perhaps I should not?

Point taken.

It would be those waving around their King James Bibles saying "No Creed but Christ!" and "The King James Bible is my statement of faith!" They are also anti-intellectual and anti-scholastic making fun of people who go to Seminary ("Cemetary"). Those who hail from Hammond, IN are among the biggest offenders but they certainly are not the only ones!

I'm not from that crowd. We are Byzantine priority. And Hammond has actually softened that stance under Wilkerson.

I have seen some it in some sources that are relatively neutral. What I will say though is that many of the radical, anti-calvinistic IFB Baptists certainly regard the persecuted Anabaptists as being their "kin."

I am using a little hyperbole here. My early time in the IFB world was while I was in the Navy during the Reagan era and very much of the mindset that the "Only good commie is a dead commie" and although I am not a warmonger, I have to admit that I still share this sentiment. My main point was to make a contrast between the "Pro-Military, Pro-Second Amendment" mindset of the Independent Baptists and the non-resistance, pacifist mindset of your average Mennonite and and wonder why anyone would think the two would have any similarity?

Not sure I understand this point.

Look at my response to DaveXR650. I acknowledge that I have met lots of wonderful Independent Baptists since leaving the IFB world that I was in! I have no problem working with and fellowshipping with such and hope I get to in the future.

Thanks for the good word.

I have to go. I'm "Deputy Dum Dum" in our IFB VBS skit.

 

[John of Japan]

Except when they get all fired up singing "My faith has found a resting place, not in device nor creed!" out of Soul-stirring Songs & Hymns?

Well, it's a hymn. Who pays attention to the lyrics??

 

[360watt]

Baptist History Homepage
All quoted from:
The Origin of the Anabaptist Churches
By John T. Christian, 1922









*Those who presume to operate under the name 'Baptist' should know at least as much as a Quaker.

I have the book History of the Baptists by John.T.Christian. It fleshes out the references and adds others that you see in the Trail of Blood

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Alan, thank you for the citations. They reinforce the point I was making. The believers’‑church principle existed long before the Swiss Brethren, and groups like the Waldenses, Petrobrusians, and others practiced convictions that later appeared among the Anabaptists. My distinction was simply between the ancient pre‑Reformation line, the Swiss Brethren of 1525, and the later Reformation‑influenced groups. Your sources confirm the antiquity of that earlier stream.