Without Christ's Substitutionary Death, There Could Be No Gospel

[KenH]

Just provide the verse that states that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect, regardless of the words used. We can examine the words individually if needed to see their possible meanings.

"Sin debt" is not an "alternate theory". It is solid Biblical teaching. Even we humans use the term for those who break law administered by man. Have you ever heard of paying one's debt to society in describing enduring the punishment for breaking law administered by man?

Furthermore,

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

A ransom is a payment.

Furthermore,

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Furthermore,

From Isaiah 53:8 For the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Furthermore,

From Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.

Furthermore,

From Isaiah 53:11 He shall bear their iniquities.

Furthermore,

From Isaiah 53:12 He bare the sin of many.

Furthermore,

1 Peter 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

To redeem something is to buy it back.

I have now shown that the Bible teaches that it was God the Father who placed the punishment for the sin debt of His elect upon God the Son to redeem them, or buy them back, from the justice that they were deserving of, and God's justice being satisfied in God the Son's perfect life lived and willing sacrifice offered in the stead of God's elect.

God the Son had the power to do ALL of this.
God the Son was willing to do ALL of this.
God the Son accomplished ALL of this.

God does not just overlook sin, He does not just wave His hand and clear the guilty(Exodus 34:7). The sins of God's elect and their guilt was imputed to Christ, He satisfied God's justice, and His perfect righteousness was imputed to God's elect.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

(emphasis mine)

I meant behavior, not physical age. You are acting like a child. So I refer to you as "kid".

How dare you call me a "kid". I am nearly 71 years old.

 

[JonC]

Yes, there is. Just as there is the "Trinity" in the Bible.

With the Trinity we can provide God's own words (no need to theorize).

But you cannot with your theory or you would have long ago.

If you doubt this then try.

Provide a verse stating Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

It does not matter which words are used. We can look at the possible meanings for each word.

 

[KenH]

Provide a verse stating Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

"Sin debt" is not an "alternate theory". It is solid Biblical teaching.

but you are still theorizing with parts.

Nope.

 

[JonC]

My point here is we have to take Scripture more seriously, read the Bible as if it were God's own words because they are His words.

Too many want to read to find some theme and create theories rather than trust in His Word.

How many times have we seen somebody say "xyz" is in the Bible yet come to find out it really is not (instead it is what they believe the Bible teaches). They say it is in the Bible to short cut examination.

But what they are doing is trying to usurp God. They view their own understanding as if it were Scripture so they play God.

 

[KenH]

With the Trinity we can provide God's own words

The same with Christ paying the total sin debt of God's elect.

Too many want to read to find some theme and create theories rather than trust in His Word.

Like you do concerning the atonement.

They view their own understanding as if it were Scripture

Like you do concerning the atonement.

You said "Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect". That is a subjective clusion

No, it is not a subjective conclusion.

the verses you provided as the verses have nothing to do with your theory.

I have no theory. The verses I quoted prove that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

 

[JonC]

The same with Christ paying the total sin debt of God's elect.

No, Kid, it is different.

I will show you why:

1. "The Lord your God is One"
2. "God will send His Spirit"
3. "I and the Father are One"

Scripture states that God is One, the Spirit is God's Spirit, Jesus and the Father are One.

Try that with "Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect."

1. No verse saying Christ paid a sin debt
2. No verse saying the price Christ suffered to purchase us excluded anybody

You assume those things because of your philosophy. It is a theory.

 

[KenH]

No, Kid, it is different.

You have been reported to the moderators for your continued personal insults toward me in this thread.

 

[JonC]

Like you do concerning the atonement.

I did quote Leviticus 16 and Hebrews 9. Just because you reject those passages does not mean I was theorizing.

The difference is what I posted was not my words. I quoted God's words.

That is the best thing to do becauze it takes all subjectivity out. It takes us out of the equation. Your disagreement was not with me but with God (I did not even expound on the passages I quoted, I just quoted them).

If you could do that with "Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect" then your faith would also be in God rather than men. Your faith woukd not be a theory.

 

[KenH]

2. No verse saying the price Christ suffered to purchase us excluded anybody

Sure there is. Christ died for His sheep, not the goats.

John 10:14-15
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Just because you reject those passages

I do not reject any passage in the Bible.

I quoted God's words.

So have I.

Your disagreement was not with me but with God

No, Jon, your disagreement is with God. I quoted God's Word, but you don't believe what God said in Isaiah chapter 53.

 

[JonC]

I have no theory. The verses I quoted prove that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

No. The verses you quoted prove what the verses stated. The Elect and Christ paying a sin debt was not even in the verses you quoted.

You just quoted verses every Christian believes about the Atonement and stated your theory.

 

[KenH]

our faith woukd not be a theory.

I have no theory to have faith in.

 

[JonC]

Sure there is. Christ died for His sheep, not the goats.

John 10:14-15
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The passage states that, like a good Shepherd, Christ lays down His life for the sheep.

I agree that Christ died for "the Bride". But you are making philosophical assumptions to arrive at your theory. You are assuming individuslbelection and some weird "sin debt".

 

[KenH]

The Elect and Christ paying a sin debt was not even in the verses you quoted.

Yes, they are.

I stated no theory, as I have no theory. I stated God's Word.

Nope. I have no theory.

 

[JonC]

No, Jon, your disagreement is with God. I quoted God's Word, but you don't believe what God said in Isaiah chapter 53.

You are sadly mistaken.

I agree with all of Isaiah 53. But Isaiah 53 does not state that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

Do you believe that punishing the innocent and clearing the guilty are alike abominations to God? Do you believe that it is wrong to punish the Just?

If so, how do you work those two objective truths into your theory?

If mot, how do you justify rejecting God's words?

 

[KenH]

You are assuming individuslbelection

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

some weird "sin debt".

It may be "weird" to you, but it is what the Bible teaches.

Isaiah 53 does not state that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

Yes it does, you just don't like what it says and don't believe it.

Do you believe that punishing the innocent and clearing the guilty are alike abominations to God?

Christ willingly paid the sin debt of God's elect. God the Father didn't drag Him kicking and screaming to the cross. Christ laid down His life.

John 10:17-18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

your theory?

I have no theory. The Bible teaches that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

you also stated a theory - "Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect".

That is not a theory. It is what is taught in the Bible, specifically for this discussion, in Isaiah chapter 53.

"Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect" is YOUR word, not God's.

Just as using the word, "Trinity" is a word used by man, but not a word used in the Bible. Yet the truth of the Trinity of the Godhead is taught in the Bible, just as the truth of Christ paying the total sin debt of God's elect is taught in the Bible.

When you state your subjective belief

I am stating objective truth taught in the Bible that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

There are no verses in all of Scripture that state "Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect".

There are no verses in all of Scripture that state "The Godhead is a Trinity", yet the truth of the Godhead being Trinitarian is taught in the Bible, just as the truth of Christ paying the total sin debt of God's elect is taught in the Bible.

 

[JonC]

I stated no theory, as I have no theory. I stated God's Word.

Nope. I have no theory.

You did state God's Word, but you also stated a theory - "Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect".

"Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect" is YOUR word, not God's.

When you state your subjective belief and claim that to be God's Word you are claiming to be God (claiming to speak for God).

There are no verses in all of Scripture that state "Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect".


How did God give you these "additional words"?

Why did God leave them out of Scripture only to give them to you in whatever special relevation you are claiming?

Are you sure it was God and not Satan?

It may be "weird" to you, but it is what the Bible teaches.

Lol... "what the Bible teaches". How many times have we heard that one. That is a hold over from your CoC (that is CoC, JW, SDA mentality).

What the Bible teaches is "what is written".

Your theory is simply not written in God's Word. It is your subjective theory about what is really taught by the Bible.

Christ willingly paid the sin debt of God's elect. God the Father didn't drag Him kicking and screaming to the cross. Christ laid down His life.

John 10:17-18
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

I think we all agree with John 10:17-18

Do you notice what is nowhere in that passage?

Yep. Nowhere does it state that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

That is not a theory. It is what is taught in the Bible, specifically for this discussion, in Isaiah chapter 53.

Which verse in Isaiah 53 states that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect?

 

[KenH]

I have no theory. The Bible teaches that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.

Do you notice what is nowhere in that passage?

The point I was making in that passage is that Christ willingly paid the sin debt of God's elect. He was not forced into it. It was already ordained to happen before the world began.

 

[JonC]

I have no theory. The Bible teaches that Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect.



The point I was making in that passage is that Christ willingly paid the sin debt of God's elect. He was not forced into it. It was already ordained to happen before the world began.

View attachment 14311

A lot of your view is God's Word. But at the same time you use theoretical concepts (like "sin debt" and that having to be paid). In the Bible there is no "sin debt". The Jews were under the Mosaic Law which was a "certificate of debt" that was nullified. But sin is the fruit of unrighteousness, and it produces death as a wage.

What I mean is if you say ""Christ paid the total sin debt of God's elect" that is theory. BUT if you quote Scripture that is fact (to Christians).


I could say that had Adam not eaten of the fruit he would have sinned in another way. I believe that. But that is theory (just my opinion, nothing I would lean on).

I could say God views clearing the guilty and punishing the innocent as anominationd, and God views punishing the just as unjust. I could say that Christ died by unjust powers (oppression). Those are all biblical facts (they are God's words).


I could say a divorced man who remarried cannot serve as a deacon. That is theory. It is built by using two passages, but combines the two passages by placing them in one context (qualifications of a deacon). It might be right, but it also could be a misinterpretation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Lol... I trust my phone (was not wearing my glasses).


I believe the passages you offered (with the inclusion of the surrounding verses). I disagree with what you add to some passages and how you resist allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture.

As I wrote, I am quite happy to let others judge the meaning of Isaiah 53. It is very straightforward. Adding this or that verse to the extract that I quoted in post #19 does not change the meaning of the extract.

For example, you seem to think that the language "Jesus bears our sins" dictates the addition of "instead of", but obviously we bearing one anothers sorrows means "with".

If you are going to pose as some sort of guru who has mastered the mystery of the cross, you need to do a lot better than this. The verb 'to bear' has a number of different meanings in English, but the Holy Spirit, who authored the New Testament, was careful to distinguish between those meanings.
1 Peter 2:24. 'Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righeousness. By His wounds, we are healed.' The Greek word here is anaphero. It appears in the N.T. only twice; the other instance is Hebrews 9:28. '...So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.'
If Christ bore our sins, not in some metaphorical sense, but in His own body, and if we are still in our sins, it would appear that He died for nothing. Moreover, He bore them 'on the tree' (Gk. xulon, not stauron, 'cross'). He bore the curse attached to our sins (Gal. 3:13). If we are still cursed by God, Christ has failed abysmally. But He bore our sins and the curse instead of us. That is the meaning the verse requires.

Now when we come to Galatians 6:2, the word for 'bear' is bastazo. 'Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.' There is an entirely different meaning. I cannot bear someone else's 'sorrows' (your word) in my own body on a tree, and nor can I bear them so that the someone else does not bear them any more. The best I can do is share them and sympathize, weeping with those who weep; and that is doubtless what I should do.

Spiritual knowledge is not knowing teachings hidden somewhere beneath God's words. Spiritual knowledge is the work of the Spirit in revealing to us the truth of God's words.

I agree with this. It seems to me that you keep talking the talk, but you fail to walk the walk. Your presuppositions have blinkered you to the extent that you cannot see the plain meaning of God's words.

Your theory, just like any of the many theories about what the Bible really teaches, is just human philosophy. It is purely subjective, based on the secular ideas of men who reject "what is written" in favor of what they think is taught.

I don't have a 'theory.' I believe and teach the Doctrine of Penal Substitution, which is clearly found in the Bible, and, less importantly, but nonetheless factually, was taught by many of the Church Fathers, Reformers and Puritans.

God's words are true. Therefore your theory is false.

Words are cheap, but God's word is indeed true, and I tell you that if Christ did not pay the penalty for your sin and mine in full upon the cross, we will have to pay it in full ourselves. Praise God, He did indeed pay it, and for that He deserves the highest worship and praise. Instead, you are slighting His work, and thereby slighting Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A lot of your view is God's Word. But at the same time you use theoretical concepts (like "sin debt" and that having to be paid). In the Bible there is no "sin debt". The Jews were under the Mosaic Law which was a "certificate of debt" that was nullified. But sin is the fruit of unrighteousness, and it produces death as a wage.

Matthew 6:12. "And forgive us our debts [Gk. opheilema], as we forgive our debtors."
Colossians 2:14 (NKJV margin). '....Having wiped out the certificate of debt with its requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.' We owed God a debt of righteousness which we were by no means able to pay (c.f. Romans 3:10), but Christ has paid it in full in His own body on the cross for those who have trusted in Him.

Jesus paid it all!
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.