Independent Baptist churches vs Anabaptists

[Armchair Apologist]

I think we’re talking past each other. I’m not arguing that every dissenting group was “Baptist,” nor am I trying to force a successionist line. My point was simply the one Spurgeon made: the historical descriptions we have of these groups were written by their enemies, and those enemies had every motive to slander, distort, or erase them. That means we must be cautious about drawing conclusions from hostile sources. Whether a group was Baptistic or not is a separate question. Spurgeon’s point was about historiography, not successionism, and that is the point I was addressing.

Perhaps we were!

I am certain that there were faithful believers throughout Church history as well as those who spoke out against the error and apostacy that was creeping into the church especially after the Edict of Tolerance and Christianity becoming the "Official Religion of the Roman Empire." I do wish we had a better handle on this historic period but as you and others say, all we really have is the history of this "Official" Church. There has got to have been someone in that time who proclaimed Constantine to be the "Anti-Christ!" Jack Chick in one of his comic books has the "True Christians" heading for the hills when Constantine came to power and legalized Christianity but I am not sure he was citing any credible source though - likely not.

 

[John of Japan]

Perhaps we were!

I am certain that there were faithful believers throughout Church history as well as those who spoke out against the error and apostacy that was creeping into the church especially after the Edict of Tolerance and Christianity becoming the "Official Religion of the Roman Empire." I do wish we had a better handle on this historic period but as you and others say, all we really have is the history of this "Official" Church. There has got to have been someone in that time who proclaimed Constantine to be the "Anti-Christ!" Jack Chick in one of his comic books has the "True Christians" heading for the hills when Constantine came to power and legalized Christianity but I am not sure he was citing any credible source though - likely not.

Did Jack ever?? (Quote sources, that is?)

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Did Jack ever?? (Quote sources, that is?)

He did cite sources such as Hislop's "The Two Babylons" and of course Albert Rivera! Would you consider these as credible sources?

What about John Todd and Rebecca Brown?

Too bad because he had great talent and did make some awesome gospel tracts (along some that are really horrible)!

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

My pastor now, is from Kentucky.

D.B. Ray is from Lexington, Kentucky, who wrote Baptist Succession: A Handbook of Baptist History, 1871.

I attended Baptist Collage there, under Ashland Avenue Baptist Church.

I'm in Georgetown, about 20 min away.

Now, I wonder if I know your Pastor. Is he from Central Kentucky?

Key distinctions in our beliefs is having no universal church.. a purely local body of Christ... cessationism... non calvinist... closed communion. Baptism of believers only. Baptism that allows someone to be voted in to be a member. Baptism as a symbol of eternal salvation..not eternal salvation itself.

"no universal church.. a purely local body of Christ" is such an enormously important Doctrine of the Bible. That is HOW JESUS COMMANDED NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS TO WORSHIP HIM, is through the ekklesia like Jesus said He Built. I'm so sorry so many haven't gotten there, based on the language. And other than Satan, who doesn't care about what words mean, I would never know how good brethren adopt a "change words to anything you want so you can understand them" Hermeneutic.

Jesus sure wasn't building a "Kingdom", which men finally changed "church" to mean in the 1500's, just like the Catholics. Only they say the impossible about their "Kingdom" (they call "church") that it is supposed to be "invisible".

Then, we've got an "Invisible Kingdom", for Protestantism, as a new thing to compete with the "Visible Kingdom" that the Catholics invented, but where are Jesus' self-governed, Independent bodies of saints assembled, under His Lordship and Headship, like He said He Built? They're there, but so rare. It's hard to find one, but those who have asked the Lord about where one of His churches is located generally seem to have found their way to one, from what I hear people say.

His churches have Authority in baptism and those things Satan fabricates to diminish the Lord's churches to insignificance as much as possible don't have and are just playing church and committing Spiritual Adulatory, for following along with the "change words to anything you want so you can understand them" Hermeneutic.

 

[360watt]

D.B. Ray is from Lexington, Kentucky, who wrote Baptist Succession: A Handbook of Baptist History, 1871.

I attended Baptist Collage there, under Ashland Avenue Baptist Church.

I'm in Georgetown, about 20 min away.

Now, I wonder if I know your Pastor. Is he from Central Kentucky?


"no universal church.. a purely local body of Christ" is such an enormously important Doctrine of the Bible. That is HOW JESUS COMMANDED NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS TO WORSHIP HIM, is through the ekklesia like Jesus said He Built. I'm so sorry so many haven't gotten there, based on the language. And other than Satan, who doesn't care about what words mean, I would never know how good brethren adopt a "change words to anything you want so you can understand them" Hermeneutic.

Jesus sure wasn't building a "Kingdom", which men finally changed "church" to mean in the 1500's, just like the Catholics. Only they say the impossible about their "Kingdom" (they call "church") that it is supposed to be "invisible".

Then, we've got an "Invisible Kingdom", for Protestantism, as a new thing to compete with the "Visible Kingdom" that the Catholics invented, but where are Jesus' self-governed, Independent bodies of saints assembled, under His Lordship and Headship, like He said He Built? They're there, but so rare. It's hard to find one, but those who have asked the Lord about where one of His churches is located generally seem to have found their way to one, from what I hear people say.

His churches have Authority in baptism and those things Satan fabricates to diminish the Lord's churches to insignificance as much as possible don't have and are just playing church and committing Spiritual Adulatory, for following along with the "change words to anything you want so you can understand them" Hermeneutic.

I've tried discussing a pure local body of Christ in other forums, but people just blindly refer to 'the church' usually with a big C..thinking of all redeemed. They don't really think about whether it's Biblical.

You can conceive of all believers as a body... if by body you mean a collection of individuals, but that isn't how the Bible defines all believers. All redeemed aren't assembled, have no ordinances, are scattered everywhere. That isn't describing the tightly knit, assembled, firm in doctrine body described in the likes of Ephesians and 1 Corinthians 12.

My pastor is Coleman Gabbard. Been here for about 30 years in New Zealand I think. He is from a kjvo fellowship Bible Baptist back ground.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

I've tried discussing a pure local body of Christ in other forums, but people just blindly refer to 'the church' usually with a big C..thinking of all redeemed. They don't really think about whether it's Biblical.

You can conceive of all believers as a body... if by body you mean a collection of individuals, but that isn't how the Bible defines all believers. All redeemed aren't assembled, have no ordinances, are scattered everywhere. That isn't describing the tightly knit, assembled, firm in doctrine body described in the likes of Ephesians and 1 Corinthians 12.

My pastor is Coleman Gabbard. Been here for about 30 years in New Zealand I think. He is from a kjvo fellowship Bible Baptist back ground.

Correct. People overlook, or simply ignore what the word for Church is and what it means. "I will build my church" Matthew 16:28, Christ does not introduce a new religious term or coin a fresh theological label for Church. Instead, He takes a familiar civic word, ἐκκλησία, ekklēsia, it always means an assembly of people called out and gathered, and He claimed it as His own. In ordinary Greek usage, an ekklēsia was never an abstract idea. It was always a body of people summoned, gathered in a place, and convened for a purpose. The word carried the concrete sense of an assembly, not a mystical or invisible entity. Never an invisible universal "assembly", a pure contradiction.

Before Christ used the word ἐκκλησία, it belonged almost entirely to the civic world. In Greek cities, an ekklēsia was the gathering of citizens called out to deliberate, vote, or act on public matters. It was the city’s official assembly, summoned by a herald, convened in a particular place, and empowered to make decisions.

 

[JonC]

Correct. People overlook, or simply ignore what the word for Church is and what it means. "I will build my church" Matthew 16:28, Christ does not introduce a new religious term or coin a fresh theological label for Church. Instead, He takes a familiar civic word, ἐκκλησία, ekklēsia, it always means an assembly of people called out and gathered, and He claimed it as His own. In ordinary Greek usage, an ekklēsia was never an abstract idea. It was always a body of people summoned, gathered in a place, and convened for a purpose. The word carried the concrete sense of an assembly, not a mystical or invisible entity. Never an invisible universal "assembly", a pure contradiction.

Before Christ used the word ἐκκλησία, it belonged almost entirely to the civic world. In Greek cities, an ekklēsia was the gathering of citizens called out to deliberate, vote, or act on public matters. It was the city’s official assembly, summoned by a herald, convened in a particular place, and empowered to make decisions.

In the 6th century BC there was also an ἐκκλησία of mathematicians. Not that I love math, but I thought it interesting.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

Not that I love math

, not my forte either.

 

[John of Japan]

In the 6th century BC there was also an ἐκκλησία of mathematicians. Not that I love math, but I thought it interesting.

Another cool usage is that "Orpheus forms for himself τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, a group of wild animals, who listen to him in the Thracian mountains where there are no people" (BAGD entry).

 

[360watt]

Correct. People overlook, or simply ignore what the word for Church is and what it means. "I will build my church" Matthew 16:28, Christ does not introduce a new religious term or coin a fresh theological label for Church. Instead, He takes a familiar civic word, ἐκκλησία, ekklēsia, it always means an assembly of people called out and gathered, and He claimed it as His own. In ordinary Greek usage, an ekklēsia was never an abstract idea. It was always a body of people summoned, gathered in a place, and convened for a purpose. The word carried the concrete sense of an assembly, not a mystical or invisible entity. Never an invisible universal "assembly", a pure contradiction.

Before Christ used the word ἐκκλησία, it belonged almost entirely to the civic world. In Greek cities, an ekklēsia was the gathering of citizens called out to deliberate, vote, or act on public matters. It was the city’s official assembly, summoned by a herald, convened in a particular place, and empowered to make decisions.

Many also, when you speak of the church not being all redeemed, assume you are denying them salvation. Since they equate joining the big C church with salvation, and we would deny that entity exists (at least until there is one body in heaven).. they think we are saying they aren't saved.

The truth is the complete opposite, since we would separate eternal salvation completely from church. A free gift, not dependent on being part of an organization.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Many also, when you speak of the church not being all redeemed, assume you are denying them salvation. Since they equate joining the big C church with salvation, and we would deny that entity exists (at least until there is one body in heaven).. they think we are saying they aren't saved.

The truth is the complete opposite, since we would separate eternal salvation completely from church. A free gift, not dependent on being part of an organization.

The Baptist distinctive of a "Saved, Baptized membership" is idealistic and well-intentioned but there will always be the false professions of those who are either deceitful or are self-deceived regarding their faith. The Lord knows those who are his and it is only these who are truly THE Church. Jesus makes continual distinctions between true and false believers all throughout the gospel accounts.

This is why the matter of church discipline is important, that we withdraw ourselves from those who walk contrary to the manner of life that our Lord has called us to (and it is very important that this manner of life is properly understood). Far too many Baptist congregations turn liberal and apostate because this is neglected. If you keep the "Goats" around, they will eventually take over and start running the show. They will then start running off the sheep and when they are out of the way, they will bring in the "wimmen preechers" and will hang rainbow flags in their sanctuaries!