Christ's Death

[JonC]

Here are a few passages that support the idea that Christ redeemed us rather than served as a substitute dying instead of us:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (Galatians 3:13)

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. (Ephesians 1:7–8)

knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1:18–19)

who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:14)

He has sent redemption to His people;
He has ordained His covenant forever;
Holy and awesome is His name. (Psalm 111:9)


Based on these (and several more) passages I believe Christ redeemed us, purchased us with His blood, rather than substituted Himself for us.

Some may say "substitution" is close enough, but I disagree. A purchase, although a type of exchange, is not a substitution. You purchase lunch. But your money is not a substitution for the food, and the food is not a substitution for the money. It is a type of exchange but far from substitution.


So we know that Christ redeemed us. But did He substitute Himself for us?

@Ben1445 what passages have you found that state Christ substituted Himself for us as opposed to redeeming us?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My point is neither case is substitution (the language itself).

Do you really not see a difference between bearing our sins and bearing our sorrows? For the second time, if I bear someone's sorrows, I don't take them away; I comfort as best I can and sympathize, and hopefully provide some relief, but sorrow for a dead spouse or child can never be taken away.
Yet the Lord Jesus takes away our sins (John 1:29; 1 John 3:5). How does He do that? Well, sharing our humanity and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh was necessary, but that doesn't take away sins. If you think it does, you will have to tell us how.
But in fact He took away our sins by paying the penalty for them. 'He was cut off from the land of the living.' OK; so what did that accomplish? 'For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.' Tell me, if the Lord Jesus is stricken for our transgressions, are we going to be stricken for them as well? This is where your argument collapses in a reather pathetic heap.

Bearing our sins could be a substitution but the language does not demand it.

I disagree. 'He was wounded for our transgressions.' The transgressions were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! He was wounded for our iniquities.' The iniquities were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! 'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' The peace is ours; The chastisement was upon Him. Penal Substitution! Come on, @JonC, get real!

I used Scripture to define "Christ bearing our sins" as non-substitutinal (sharing our humanity, coming in the likeness of sinful flesh, the OT sacrifices, etc).

So why did this 'sharing of our humanity' have to be 'in His own body, on the tree'? You have answered nothing; you have just ridden your own, rather pathetic hobby-horse across the B.B. You have dipped your toe into the Levitical offerings, but you will not give us a substantial account of what they signify.

Thus far your claim is that its substitution because you want it to be substitution. That does not work.

Well, I can cut and paste what I wrote above:
'He was wounded for our transgressions.' The transgressions were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! He was bruised for our iniquities.' The iniquities were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! 'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' The peace is ours; The chastisement was upon Him. Penal Substitution! It is as plain as the nose on your face!

Look where your theory has taken you. You stated that "God oppressed Jesus". I have to respect your willingness to state what you believe even though it is a heresy (calling God an oppressor). But I cannot respect the heresy itself because I firmly believe God's judgment is never oppression (it is always just).

Look at the Scriptures.
'He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth.' Or to put it another way, He was bruised and put to grief. Who is responsible for this outrage?
'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.'
Also in Psalm 22: 'I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; it has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to my jaws....... For dogs have surounded Me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.'
Who has done this? Who is responsible?
'You have brought Me to the dust of death.' God has done it all. Yet the Lord Jesus can say with Joseph, who is clearly a type of Christ, 'You [Joseph's brothers, but the Jews, the Romans, and us as well by implication] meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive' (Genesis 50:40).

If you suppose that God was thinking, "Hang on a moment; I was pleased with the wounding and the bruising and the putting to grief, but I never intended the oppression," you are more stupid than I realised. The wounding and the bruising, the flogging, the spitting, was the oppression, and the Triune God decreed it and the Son willingly underwent it and, 'For the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.' Praise His name forever!

 

[KenH]

"Take the following illustration. View sin as a debt to the justice of God. Now, if you are a surety for another, and he cannot pay the debt, it becomes yours just as much as if you had yourself personally contracted it. The law makes no distinction between his debt and yours; and the creditor may sell the very bed from under you to pay the debt, just as if you were the original debtor. So the blessed Lord, by becoming Surety for His people, took upon Him their sins, and thus made them His own.
...
An awakened sinner, under divine quickening, has to bear but the weight of his own sins; but Jesus had to bear the sins of millions. It is at best but a few drops of the wrath of God, and that wrath as already appeased, that fall into a trembling sinner’s conscience; but Jesus had to endure all the wrath of God due to millions of ransomed transgressors. It is but the distant peals of the law which sound in a convinced sinner’s soul; but the whole storm burst upon the head of the Surety. In a little wrath God hides his face from his Zion for a moment; but in great wrath he hid His face from His dear Son.

Thus, whatever be the spiritual sorrows and troubles of afflicted Zion, even though she be “tossed with tempest and not comforted,” in all she has a Head who suffered infinitely more than all the collective members.
...
It was, then, his personal experience of these spiritual afflictions which makes the blessed Lord so sympathising a High Priest at the right hand of God. Though now exalted to the heights of glory, He can still feel for His suffering saints here below. The garden of Gethsemane, the cross of Calvary, are still in His heart’s remembrance, and all the tender pity and rich compassion of His soul melt towards His afflicted saints; for,

His heart is touch’d with tenderness.
His bowels melt with love."

- excerpt from J.C. Philpot's, "The Lord Jesus' Unique Experience of Suffering Under the Felt Burden of Imputed Sin"

 

[JonC]

Do you really not see a difference between bearing our sins and bearing our sorrows? For the second time, if I bear someone's sorrows, I don't take them away; I comfort as best I can and sympathize, and hopefully provide some relief, but sorrow for a dead spouse or child can never be taken away.
Yet the Lord Jesus takes away our sins (John 1:29; 1 John 3:5). How does He do that? Well, sharing our humanity and coming in the likeness of sinful flesh was necessary, but that doesn't take away sins. If you think it does, you will have to tell us how.
But in fact He took away our sins by paying the penalty for them. 'He was cut off from the land of the living.' OK; so what did that accomplish? 'For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.' Tell me, if the Lord Jesus is stricken for our transgressions, are we going to be stricken for them as well? This is where your argument collapses in a reather pathetic heap.

I disagree. 'He was wounded for our transgressions.' The transgressions were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! He was wounded for our iniquities.' The iniquities were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! 'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' The peace is ours; The chastisement was upon Him. Penal Substitution! Come on, @JonC, get real!

So why did this 'sharing of our humanity' have to be 'in His own body, on the tree'? You have answered nothing; you have just ridden your own, rather pathetic hobby-horse across the B.B. You have dipped your toe into the Levitical offerings, but you will not give us a substantial account of what they signify.

Well, I can cut and paste what I wrote above:
'He was wounded for our transgressions.' The transgressions were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! He was bruised for our iniquities.' The iniquities were ours; the wounds were His. Penal substitution! 'The chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' The peace is ours; The chastisement was upon Him. Penal Substitution! It is as plain as the nose on your face!

Look at the Scriptures.
'He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth.' Or to put it another way, He was bruised and put to grief. Who is responsible for this outrage?
'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.'
Also in Psalm 22: 'I am poured out like water, and all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; it has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and My tongue clings to my jaws....... For dogs have surounded Me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me. They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.'
Who has done this? Who is responsible?
'You have brought Me to the dust of death.' God has done it all. Yet the Lord Jesus can say with Joseph, who is clearly a type of Christ, 'You [Joseph's brothers, but the Jews, the Romans, and us as well by implication] meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive' (Genesis 50:40).

If you suppose that God was thinking, "Hang on a moment; I was pleased with the wounding and the bruising and the putting to grief, but I never intended the oppression," you are more stupid than I realised. The wounding and the bruising, the flogging, the spitting, was the oppression, and the Triune God decreed it and the Son willingly underwent it and, 'For the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.' Praise His name forever!

Yes, sin and sorrow are two different things. Sorrow is an emotion whereas sins are actions or thoughts.

I agree with the passages. And that os my point.

What does Isaiah and Luke call Chriat's death? "Oppression" (suffering under an unjust power or authority) , and "unjust judgment".

You said "God oppressed Jesus". How is that not heresy?

 

[JonC]

"Take the following illustration. View sin as a debt to the justice of God."

But it isn't. That assumes the 16th century philosophy to be divine justice. I do not believe it is.

God actually defines divine justice for us - it is His righteousness. Help the oppressed, never punish the righteous, never clear rhe guilty.

Why go to a failed philosophy that only lives on in PSA when we have God's words?

 

[KenH]

But it isn't.

A Surety pays the debt of the person who cannot pay the debt.

And God's Word in the book of Hebrews says that Christ is the Surety.

Just look up the definition of a surety - as Merriam-Webster Dictionary says, "One who has become legally liable for the debt of another."

 

[JonC]

A Surety pays the debt of the person who cannot pay the debt.

And God's Word in the book of Hebrews says that Christ is the Surety.

Just look up the definition of a surety - as Merriam-Webster Dictionary say, "One who has become legally liable for the debt of another."

You are cherry picking words and going to financial law. But that is not how the verse uses it. Christ is not the Guaranteor of our debt. He is the Guaranteor of the New Covenant.

For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God...so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Christ Himself is the Guaranteor (or Surety) of a better convenant - a covenant where we are comformed into His image, made perfect (something the Old Covenant cannot do). It is guaranteed based on Christ Himself (we will be like Him, He is the Firstborn of many, we will be made new creations, conformed to His image).


Nothing in Hebrews 7 speaks of a debt or a surety for a debt. The context is the New Covenant and Christ in comparison to the Old Covenant and the priests.

You are using a word in a specific way that is foreign to its context.

I have done justice and righteousness;
Do not leave me to my oppressors.
Be surety for Your servant for good;
Do not let the arrogant oppress me. (Psalm 119)

Like a swallow, like a crane, so I twitter;
I moan like a dove;
My eyes look wistfully to the heights;
O Lord, I am oppressed, be my security. (Isaiah 38)


How on earth did you even get to your use of "surety" as guaranteeing a debt from Hebrews 7???

 

[KenH]

How on earth did you even get to your use of "surety" as guaranteeing a debt from Hebrews 7???

As Merriam-Webster dictionary says, a surety is ""One who has become legally liable for the debt of another."

Hebrews chapter 7 says that Christ is the Surety of a better testament. And what is the better testament based on? Christ's sacrifice - His blood - that paid the debt that He took on by imputation.

From Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the new testament.

The gospel of Christ summed up in one verse:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

There is a wonderful hymn written by Augustus Toplady on this subject:

1. From whence this fear and unbelief?
Hast thou, O Father, put to grief
Thy spotless Son for me?
And will the righteous Judge of men
Condemn me for that debt of sin
Which, Lord, was charged on Thee?

2. Complete atonement Thou hast made,
And to the utmost farthing paid
Whate’er Thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place,
If sheltered in Thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with Thy blood?

3. If Thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my room endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
And then again at mine.

4. Turn, then, my soul, unto thy rest;
The merits of thy great High Priest
Speak peace and liberty;
Trust in His efficacious blood,
Nor fear thy banishment from God,
Since Jesus died for thee.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You said "God oppressed Jesus". How is that not heresy?

Because it is what the Bible makes exceedingly clear as I continually point out.
Moreover, there are multiple words which are translated 'oppressed' in the Bible The one which is used in Isaiah 53:7 is so translated in only one other place: Isaiah 3:5. If you read the previous verse as well, it is God who has given the Israelites over to be oppressed as part of His judgment on sin. In Isaiah 53, God gives Christ up to be oppressed to redeem us from sin.