Hebrew Word Study - "Kaphar" (Strong's H3722)

[Ben1445]

I am not here for childish gibberish. You are avoiding the topic.

I asked how you get substitution from Leviticis 16 with the Day of Atonement.

Which words are you seeing that leads you to believe it is substitution?

Same with Christ bearing our sins. We know it is not in bearing them because we bear one another's sorrows (mot substitution), we bear Christ's righteousness (not substitution), we bear God's image (not substitution).

But for some reason when it comes to Atonement you see "substitution".

Where do you get substitution in the text? Which words mean "substitution"?

You claim that I said that the Bible is weird.
But you cannot quote me.

So you are the one putting out childish gibberish.
There is no point in arguing with you.

 

[Ben1445]

It was according to God's predetermined plan. But God did not commit the sin. He did not force Satan to enter Judas, He did not betray Jesus, He did not persecute the Church, He did not make Adam eat the fruit, He did not sell Joseph into slavery.

God calls it "an abomination". Isaiah called it "oppression" (the exercise of unjust power). Luke called it "unjust judgment".

Why bring me into it? Your argument is with God. I just gave you the passages. Don't shoot the middle man. Your quarrel is with Him.

So God determined that man would sin??
Suddenly you have reverted to your Calvinist tendencies.

 

[JonC]

So God determined that man would sin??
Suddenly you have reverted to your Calvinist tendencies.

Lol... no. It was according to God's predetermined plan. It does not mean God determined that it should happen. But the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world was not God's "plan B".

A simple illustration -

Your child steps on a rusty nail. You take your child to recieve a tetanus shot. Do you give the shot? Is it your will that your child be in pain? Is it your desire that your child is jabbed with a needle? Or is your motivation different? Maybe you just want your child protected from tetanus, and the nurse giving the shot is part of the process achieving the goal.


C.s. Lewis made an observation that may help you better grasp those passages I had quoted.

"You cannot go on 'seeing through' things for ever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see."


If you take God's word as it is written rather than seeking a philosophical meaning behind every word then you will begin to understand.

What does it mean when God says that punishing the just is evil? It means punishing the just is evil.

What does it mean when God says it is an abomination to Him to punish the innocent? It means it is an abomination to Him to punish the innocent.

What does it mean when God says clearing the guilty is an abomination to Him? It means that clearing the guilty is an abomination to Him.

What does God mean when He says the purpose of atonement is to cleans from unrighteousness? It means the purpose of atonement is to cleans from unrighteousness


When you reason away everything you have nothing. Just your theory.

 

[Ben1445]

It was according to God's predetermined plan. It does not mean God determined that it should happen.

Are you on medication?

Can you hear yourself?

 

[JonC]

Are you on medication?

Can you hear yourself?

Lol... no. That is actually a very old argument (ordination vs decree).

The basic idea is that God works all things (including acts of the wicked) for the good, for His purposes. Yet God is not the author of evil. When evil occurs it is not that God has determined that evil should occur but even wicked acts are in acvord with God's plan. The difference is ordaine (a part of God's plan but not done by God) versus decree (God did it).


Take Judas' betrayal of Jesus. This was obviously a part of God's plan and it was necessary towards our redemption, BUT the biblical text ascribes this to Satan entering Judas.


Your view is the counter-argument, that God does the evil, God oppresses, God exercises unjust judgment because it is in accordance with God's plan. Those are the two sides of that debate.

You may want to look through that passage, like you did the other passages mentioned, to say God made Judas betray Jesus but that would just be where your philosophy takes you and not according to the Scriptures.