Featured What does this statement mean?

The problem is not what DHK said, but with your misinterpretation of what he said. He never said that he Pharisee loved Christ or kept his commandments because they loved Christ. DHK simply pointed out that not all Jews loved Christ but the context of the text in question is speaking about those whom He called and recognized as His own disciples. He is addressing them and they are those who already professed faith in him. He is simply setting forth "love" as the correct motivation for keeping his commandments by those who already confess Him to be their Lord and Savior. He is addressing those unto whom He said their names were already written in heaven.

The Pharisees are examples before the cross who did not profess him as Lord and Savior and who did not love him. Hence, he was not addressing that text to non-professors. He was not addressing that text to those who hated him and rejected him as Lord and Savior! It is that simple! DHK is simply pointing out and defining the proper audiance he is addressing that text to. It is just that simple! You on the other hand are trying to apply it to a completely different kind of Audiance like unto the Pharisees who were unbelivers, who did not acknowledge him as Lord and Savior, who hated him and rejected him as the Messiah.[/QUOTE]

 

Moriah, the Pharisees had already been brought into this discussion some time ago. You have a short memory. Go back and read the posts. The conversation started with me answering you that no unsaved person can either love God or obey God. The Pharisees are a good example of that. They neither loved Christ nor obeyed Christ. They hated him, and in the end crucified him.
OTOH, his disciples loved him, and showed that love by their obedience.
His words were directed to his disciples. I already explained that to you also. This was a conversation begun in Chapter 13 and carried into this chapter 14, and still continues through to the end of 16. Then chapter 17 we find Christ praying his Great High Priestly Prayer. But in these chapters, 13-16 it is all one long conversation between Christ and the 12. Thus he is speaking to the "saved."

It was an answer to your question. Christ told them that the comforter would come. I quoted you Scripture already in John 14. He would go away and would send them a Comforter. They would have to wait.
What question "that you have asked of me" have I not answered.
Biblicist is right. You follow a pattern of RJP.

1. Because it was pre-cross.
2. Because he was speaking to a select group--his disciples. He was saying: "If anyone of you (the 12) loves me...." Remember the scene in chapter 13--the washing of the feet in the room. They were still there. The same people. The same Christ. The same 12. From the washing of the feet in chapter 13 to the discussion in chapter 14 there is no change of venue. The "anyone" are the disciples.

Like I said you have not studied the passage.
He was speaking to the 12.
I never said anything blasphemous. Watch what you say!!

 

Go back and read Moriah. Don't lie.
Here is YOUR quote:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1842498&postcount=129

You were the first one to introduce "the Pharisees" into this discussion. Now you are denying it. Pure hypocrisy.

"If you love me keep my commandments."
The command has nothing to do with the Pharisees.
1. Jesus wasn't speaking to them; he was speaking to the 12 disciples.
2. They didn't love Jesus.
3. They wouldn't obey Jesus.
4. They wanted to kill Jesus.
5. The Pharisees don't even enter into this picture, and neither does this verse for it is about discipleship not salvation.

And I used to say to my children: "If anyone lies to me you will face appropriate punishment."
--Did the "anyone" apply to you too?
He was in a confined room with the 12. How did the "anyone" possibly apply to anyone outside of that room. Its historical context is to the 12. That doesn't mean we can't learn principles from that passage. But we certainly can't apply it to salvation.

Then maybe you better ask again the question you want answered.

There is still no definitive question.

That is not what Jesus said. Prove that he did. Quote the exact passage.

What is the question?

I don't have false doctrines, and neither can I answer the question without a question. :laugh:

I am not a Calvinist, and I am not a Lutheran, and I will never be able to give an acceptable answer to a question that is unknown.

First, I have answered this question a number of times already.
Second, my answer is blasphemous. Those kind of answers deserve to be reported don't they?
Third, Jesus was only speaking to the 12. Check chapter 13 and then keep reading. When did they leave that room? Judas left, but when did the rest leave. Just the disciples and Jesus were in that room.
Why did Jesus say "if" to the disciples.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? I have told my daughter the same thing a time or too. She demonstrates her love to me by her obedience to me. Those that don't love me or don't respect me don't care about respect or obedience. And that is the way the Pharisees treated Jesus. They had no respect. They spit in his face. They crucified him.

The disciples were already saved. Or don't you believe that? Was Jesus training unsaved individuals to carry on his work?

You believe Peter was an unsaved carnal man when he said:
Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And yet Jesus said:
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
--But you don't seem to believe the words of Jesus.

Salvation is through Christ alone.
Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimethea, and Saul of Tarsus were all Pharisees who got saved. They believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah/Savior. That is what saved them, not their works. Their obedience did not save them. Their faith did. The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost at which time they would have received Him.

 

Before I post a reply to post #159 by DHK, I will ask him kindly to verify the accusations he makes with facts or comments I have made. If he cannot, it is living proof Moriah is right, and he is a liar, and cannot keep himself from lying about others he opposes. I will for now give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to verify by my words his accusations.

 

He quoted you and gave you the address where you could verify your OWN QUOTE. That quote proved you were the one that introduced the pharisees and he was only responding.

Look at your quote!

"A Pharisee invited Jesus to dinner! Does that prove the Pharisee was saved? NO" - Moriah

DHK merely brought up your very point to prove that not all men acknowledged Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord - which was YOUR VERY POINT in this statement was it not?

John 13-15 records a discussion in a confined space to a confined specified group of people that do claim him as Lord and Savior. The "anyone" in context are those he is addressing in that room and those that "shall believe on him" through their word - BELIEVERS!

This is such a simple point and yet you are so blind you cannot see a red barn if if was placed in front of your nose.

Jesus was talking to professed believers in him as Lord and Savior - He was not talking to the LOST and unbelievers LIKE THE PHARISEES. Hence, the "ANYONE" is in the confines of BELIEVERS IN CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR!

 

Oh get a life HP! Everyone on this forum that has been following your threads for the past six months knows what you believe!!!!

As for Moriah, either both of you are incapable of reading or your minds are so warped you couldn't see a barn if it were placed squarely in front of your nose.

 

You have one messed up mind! The "anyone" is qualified by the condition "if...LOVES ME"! Lost people do not LOVE Christ as "love" is a fruit of the Spirit not a work of the flesh - Go read the works of the flesh versus the fruit of the Spirit listed for you by Paul in Galatians 5:17-19 and see if you can find "love" listed in the fruit of the flesh:

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

Do you find it listed there Moriah????? Now read the list of the fruit of the Spirit:

Ga. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


You cannot have the fruit of the Spirit or "love" without first already having the Spirit of God in you or so says Paul:

Rom. 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

I put it in large letters because you seemingly cannot read to well.

Paul places all human beings into one of two categories.





Here is something new for you. The Word of God categorizes all humans in one of two categories:


1. Lost or Saved
2. In the flesh or In the Spirit
3. spiritually dead or Spiritually quickened

There is no THIRD category in either case.


Those "in the flesh" are lost and are only capable of the works of the flesh because they do not have the indwelling Spirit and so they are "none of His"

Those "in the Spirit" have the indwelling Spirit of God and are capable of the fruits of the Spirit.

Rom. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Since you are sort of hard of hearing and a poor reader, let me spell it out to you again.

1. "IF anyone LOVES me" is only possible for those who are first INDWELT by the Spirit of God as the LOVE OF GOD is produced in men by the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 5:5) and the lost man or those "in the flesh" cannot love God as love is not part of the works of the flesh!

2. Hence, the "anyone" is not lost, or those "in the flesh" as they are incapable of love for Christ as love for Christ is produced by the Spirit of God or the FRUIT of the Spirit (Gal. 5:19) and is not found in the works of "the flesh.":

 

Biblicist, if you do not desire for DHK or yourself to be proven bold face liars, quote me in what I have stated as my testimony or what I believe and show how what you and DHK are accusing me of, or saying is what I believe, is indeed the truth.

Show us that "barn" you speak of Biblicist.

 

No I don't have to prove that. Jesus was saying "If anyone (of you), that is his twelve disciples, love me you will keep my disciples, you will obey me. I have already proved this to you. They were in a confined space, the upper room. No one else was there.
As far as receiving the Holy Spirit is concerned, I quoted to you three verses all in the book of Acts that they were to wait in Jerusalem unto the Holy Spirit would come. Moriah did you go to Jerusalem to wait until you got the Holy Spirit. Or maybe you haven't got the Holy Spirit because you haven't been to Jerusalem yet. :laugh:
You don't bother with the context do you?

Your statement makes absolutely no sense. You don't know what an oxymoron is, and are not qualified to make such a statement. An oxymoron is a figure of speech when two words having opposite meanings are placed next to each other usually revealing a paradox.
For example:
pretty ugly, controlled chaos, forward retreat, open secret, sweet sorrow, etc.
Those are oxymorons. Nothing you said was an oxymoron.
You don't know what you are talking about.

 

HP: That is true in a sense, but you and I are not God. We can be deceived, thinking ourselves to be one thing when in reality our lives, proven by practicing sin on a daily basis, might well testify to the deception one might well be in. Thinking themselves to be servants of God while in reality simply serving the flesh, deceived as to their final standing before God. Never omit the category of the deceived, for there are MANY in that category according to Scripture.

 

HP you have argued that you can and do live above sin. Your admission that you have sin and occassionally sin is not the rule but the exception to the rule - hence as a rule you believe you live above sin and thus are sinless and thus are like God!

You deny you have indwelling sin and thus deny you have any internal urges to sin.

So you want an apology because we did not acknowledge that ONCE IN A RARE MOON you might sin! PLeeeeeeeeease, take vacation!

 

Your beliefs are quite similar to Moriah's
You don't believe in the depravity of man. Thus you believe that a man can live in sinlessness. What have I gotten wrong HP?

 

HP if you are not saved but deceived that means you are in the caterory of the lost, spiritual dead, and still in the flesh - only two categories NEVER a third category because it is that person which is DECEIVED not God - God sees them as they are - lost, unregenerated and still in the flesh.

 

Biblicist, you ignore the truth. You are not God and neither am I. In this world you can be as deceived as anyone, in spite of God's knowledge of who is and who is not saved. Scripture tells us plainly how to see if in fact we are who we claim to be, and it is not by reading your name in the flyleaf of ones Bible, nor is it by who we say we are or believe we are. We are told to examine ourselves. If one is sinning on a daily basis, practicing daily sin, how is such a one going to pass the exam?

Even if one passes the exam today, there is yet an exam to pass tomorrow. Examining ourselves is not a one time act, but a continued examination as long as we hold our salvation in this world in the Biblicial manner, i.e., by faith. No one in this world holds absolute knowledge of their final standing before God. We can only be assured of our standing before Him as our hearts and lives are pure before Him. Claiming to sin daily and yet saying one is saved, is like playing Russian roulette on a daily basis with ones final standing before Him.

I know full well that if one is deceived they would also fail to see the need to examine themselves to see "if" they are of the faith. It would be wasted effort in their estimation at this juncture in life, but time and eternity will prove them eternally unwise.