Featured The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

In Matt 24 this is when He "gathers his elect to Himself" from the four winds - the four corners of the earth.



In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."




So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---


Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Pre-trib does not survive this Bible detail.

Just after Jesus predicted the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 24 the disciples ask the question - 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Now notice that "Christ's coming" is exactly what is described in Matt 24 and so also in John 14:1-4

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Christ did not say "this is NOT the coming that you need to focus on because there will be another earlier coming where I will get you" -- as some have "much imagined".


=======================

Matt 24 starts out like this -

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming ("parousia"), and of the end of the age?”

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance.

Notice then the "sign of the Son of Man" appears after the "great tribulation"

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

in Christ,

Bob

 

The elect are the Jews. That is who he is speaking to in the context here. Especially in Matthew which is a book written primarily for the Jewish believers presenting Christ as Messiah the King. He will appear for them, and as in Romans 11:26, so then all Israel shall be saved. In Rev.1

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
--The elect here are the Jews. The Christians will already be raptured.

 

Some Jews are - as we saw in Romans 2 and in Romans 9 AND in Romans 11 - the church of God consists of the elect among about Jews and Gentiles.

No news there.

Turns out - the Gospels were written for us Christians to read.

No news there.

Yes - the 2nd coming will be hard to miss. This is why pre-trib does not survive Matt 24.

Rev 20:1-5 "The FIRST Resurrection" is what we see in Rev 20 and in 1Thess 4. John and Paul are describing the same event. The 2nd coming and the resurrection that takes place then.

Thus in writing to the Thessalonians Paul describes the appearing of Christ this way --

2Thess 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matt 24
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

in Christ,

Bob

 

Now notice that "Christ's coming" is exactly what is described in Matt 24 and so also in John 14:1-4

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

John 14 says nothing about a dwelling place in heaven " when you die"

John 14 talks about Christ "coming again" to "receive us to himself" so that "Where I am there you may be also".

1Thess 4 describes the 2nd coming and says "and so shall we ever be WITH the Lord".

In Both John 14 and in 1Thess 4 it is the coming of Christ that accomplishes that.

Peter (who was standing right there in John 14) says to "fix your hope completely" on the 2nd coming - not on "when you die".



And it has not happened yet.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Has it ever occurred to you that there might be two different gatherings of the elect?

You fail to be able to discern between the two different events, I have a feeling you did not come to these conclusions on your own but that you were taught them.

 

still waiting for a response to this.

If there all of us are changed in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus second coming which you all suppose is post trib, Than where do the nations come from seeing as how glorified bodies are as angels and do not reproduce?

 

The lost aren't resurrected in the first resurrection. They reproduce.
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrectionn such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Notice that the elect, all the way through to the martyrs during the Trib., are in the first resurrection.

 

John 14 emphasizes four major points, none of which fit your paradigm.
1. He tells his disciples he is going away. They need not to be troubled by this.

2. The next point is about salvation is a key verse:
It is verse 6: He is the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him. No amount of works or keeping of the law can get one to heaven. It is through Christ alone.

3. He is speaking to his disciples. Three times in this chapter (15,21,23) does he command his disciples to keep HIS commands (not the law). The demonstration of our love for Christ is our obedience to HIM, not the law.

4. His emphasis on his going away (1-5) is because he is sending the Comforter to them. He will always be with them. But in coming days they will rely on the Holy Spirit as His presence.

In no way is this passage eschatological. It is a comforting passage with some last instructions before he is betrayed into the hands of the Jews and Romans. He is still in the Upper Room at this point in time.

 

Paul, writing to believers in Rome, uses chapters 9-11 to describe to them the events of the nation of Israel. Therefore he is writing about the nation of Israel. This context is what you miss every time.

Correct. But not every context is written to the Christian. If it were then we can say that John 8:44 is written to you and you can make the personal application to yourself:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--Are you now ready to admit that your father is the devil because all the Bible is written to Christians--something you demand is true. This is the game you play Bob. Ignoring context is one of the things you do continually.

The context of the "elect" in Matthew 24 was the Jews.

I quoted to you Romans 11:26 and Rev.1:7. You ignored those verses.
Your answer is "That is why (Rom.11:26 and Rev.1:7)...pre-trib does not survive Mat.24--which does not make sense.
There are two resurrections according to Jesus in John 5, and according to John in Rev.20. The first is the resurrection of the righteous before the one thousand years (Rev.20), and then Jesus describes a resurrection of the just and the unjust. Which one are you in? The resurrection of the just takes place before the millennial kingdom, before the rapture. The resurrection of the unjust takes place after the millennial kingdom, that is after the thousand years are up, according to Rev.20 at the Great White Throne Judgment. If it is that resurrection that you are in, then you are in the resurrection of the damned.

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Except for this one verse you have described the Second Resurrection, the resurrection of the damned, the unjust who will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:11-15) and receive their final condemnation forever to be in the Lake of fire.
That is when the Second Coming takes place.
The rapture is at least one thousand years before that, and it is called the First Resurrection. If you expect to be in that Second Resurrection, at the time of His Coming you will be forever damned. It is the resurrection of the unjust. The just will rise one thousand years before that. That is clear from Rev.20:1-4.

 

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

According to Jesus, the resurrection of ALL, both the evil and the good, will take place at the same time. The good will receive life while the evil will recieve condemnation. No second chances and no 1000 year reign.

Why is it easier to believe a lie you've heard a thousand times than it is to believe the truth?

Clear passages, such as the one in John, should never be ignored or twisted to fit highly symbolic language such as found in Rev 20.

 

Let's consider another translation. Here is Young's Literal Translation:

John 5:28 `Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

There are clearly two resurrections as one can see in verse 29. They are separated by a thousand years as taught in Revelation 20, all of which is not symbolic. If it was all symbolic the book would have no meaning at all would it? That is a nonsensical approach to the book.

 

Paul really taught OSAS. He is not required to use "E-7-esque."
John agrees with Paul. He says:

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Those who believe know they have eternal life.
If one doesn't believe he is not a believer. That is the only conclusion one can come to from these verses, isn't it?

 

In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---


Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.


--------------------

Yet only 1 in Matt 24?

Only 1 mentioned by Peter in 1Peter 1?

Only 1 in 1Thess 4?

Only 1 in John 14:1-3?

Only 1 case of the "first resurrection" in Rev 20 and it is exactly 1000 years from the 2nd resurrection (the resurrection of the wicked).

And yet we should suppose "2" gatherings of the elect???

Why add that "insert" when it makes no sense for the saints in 1Peter 1 "at the revelation of Jesus Christ" to focus entirely on an event that is not where they will be gathered to Christ - and the same for Matt 24??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Looks like two resurrection in John 5 just as John speaks of two resurrections in Rev 20 separated by exactly 1000 years.

Doesn't happen often these days but now and then DHK and I agree on some point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, either you don't read or don't listen. Probably both.
I am not going to respond any longer to a repetition of the same verse, the same post over and over and over again. Respond to my post without the repetition of the same thing. You haven't responded to what I have posted. Do you have a problem with that?

I'll explain this passage (which you haven't explained). You just post it.
There is the tribulation, as is described. You are silent about the tribulation.
When was the sun darkened? When did the moon not give its light?
During the Dark Ages? That's good for a laugh! Surely your joking! No such signs and wonders occurred then. That alone shoots down your theory.
--The stars will fall from heaven. When did that happen?
--The powers of heaven shall shake. When did that happen?
--These all happen, and then will Christ come again. But first the Tribulation must occur and it will be preceded by some terrible and fearful signs in both the earth and sky. You have not accounted for that.
The Tribulation has yet to take place. After it does, then Christ will come for his elect, the Jews. Before that time, before the tribulation the saints will be raptured, as per 1Thes.4:15-17. You have no answer to these scriptures.

You have no answer do you. You are able to copy and paste but you can't explain the Scriptures can you? You don't know what they mean. The only knowledge of these scriptures that you have shown recently is the ability to copy and paste them.

 

But you don't ignore them, right?
You keep them all, all the time, without fail, correct? Do you remember John's warnings:


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Proof then that you are not one of the elect.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--The above verse teaches that if you fail in one area of the law (just once in your entire lifetime) that you are cursed.
It would just take one lie. Have you ever lied just one time in your life?
Then you are cursed.
You deceived yourself.
The truth is not in you.
You have made Christ a liar.
His word is not in you.

You really are in bad shape aren't you.
Perhaps you better rethink your position.

 

The response to this post is interesting to me.

====================================

.
Looks like two resurrection in John 5 just as John speaks of two resurrections in Rev 20 separated by exactly 1000 years.

Doesn't happen often these days but now and then DHK and I agree on some point.

=============================================

Notice that even though I differ with DHK on the subject of the rapture - I cannot simply lie about his statement on the two resurrections and claim that he does not believe the two resurrections are 1000 years apart in Rev 20.

Just because I differ with him in one point - does not mean I must lie about what he says in another instead of simply admitting to a point where some agreement does exist.

That concept has been very difficult for one or two posters on this board.


in Christ,

Bob

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Now notice that "Christ's coming" is exactly what is described in Matt 24 and so also in John 14:1-4

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”



John 14 says nothing about a dwelling place in heaven " when you die"

John 14 talks about Christ "coming again" to "receive us to himself" so that "Where I am there you may be also".

1Thess 4 describes the 2nd coming and says "and so shall we ever be WITH the Lord".

In Both John 14 and in 1Thess 4 it is the coming of Christ that accomplishes that.

Peter (who was standing right there in John 14) says to "fix your hope completely" on the 2nd coming - not on "when you die".



And it has not happened yet.

==========================

In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


So then for those who prefer an even more pointed reading ---


Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.


--------------------






Only 1 gathering of the elect in the Bible

only 1 in Matt 24

Only 1 mentioned by Peter in 1Peter 1

Only 1 in 1Thess 4

Only 1 in John 14:1-3

Only 1 case of the "first resurrection" in Rev 20 and it is exactly 1000 years from the 2nd resurrection (the resurrection of the wicked).

And yet we should suppose "2" gatherings of the elect???

Why add that "insert" when it makes no sense for the saints in 1Peter 1 "at the revelation of Jesus Christ" to focus entirely on an event that is not where they will be gathered to Christ - and the same for Matt 24??

================================== end post

The text calls it the "great tribulation" -

In our discussion I have been arguing that Matt 24 says that Christ gathers his elect "after the tribulation".

So that from the stand point of someone 2000 years ago that is not only after the future tribulation (future to us). But also the dark ages - since that is the past. Not sure why you expect that the 2nd coming has already happened when we both know there is a future tribulation to this day.

I find your logic "illusive" is claiming that the post-trib rapture view claims that no tribulation is ahead of us - and all of it must be in the past. Who (besides you) ever says that?

Why keep doing that?

who buys it??

Again - I find it hard to believe that you think the rapture survives given that the gathering of the saints - God's elect is after the tribulation - that is future.

This is where 2Thess 2 matches with Matt 24 in a way that pre-trib simply does not survive.



2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Matt 24
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."



in Christ,

Bob