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Featured Was it the Choice of God That You Were Born Into the World

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JD731, Jul 1, 2023.

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  1. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I am saying what I have always said. If God wanted to act over men in his unrestricted sovereignty he could have. He did not want to. I have read it in the scriptures and the fact that Jesus did not cease being God when he submitted himself to natural laws and natural men by becoming a natural man proves it better than anything I could ever come up with.
     
    #101 JD731, Jul 13, 2023
  2. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    In other words, simply put, in short sentences, you believe that Jesus was not Sovereign on earth?
     
    #102 Piper, Jul 13, 2023
  3. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus Christ was not tempted like as we are yet without sin he could not have been proven as perfectly righteous before God the Father and man. Anyone with any reason should be able to figure that out. The sovereign God ruled that Jesus would be subject to natural laws and natural man and that he himself would not interfere so he could really be our substitute. While this was going on Jesus said "I and my Father are one."
     
    #103 JD731, Jul 13, 2023
  4. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Christ was always Sovereign in His Earthly Ministry

    always

    always

    always

    He chose to limit what we would see of His Sovereignty in His Word

    He could have called myriads of angels, but did not
     
    #104 Marooncat79, Jul 13, 2023
  5. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    He seemingly could have made stones to cry out in Luke 19

    unless you believe it a metaphor
     
    #105 Marooncat79, Jul 13, 2023
  6. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Do you believe that Jesus ceased to become Sovereign when he became man?

    I know you won't answer, because you know that if you say he did, you will be wrong.
     
    #106 Piper, Jul 13, 2023
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    He could call myriads of angels if he wanted to forsake his mission. No doubt about that. What if he had? There would be no savior for any man. But what did Jesus say?

    John 19:11
    Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

    In case you do not know it, Our Lord Jesus was saying that this man had power over him. It does not matter the reason in this discussion. He had power over the God man and Jesus was not acting on the principle of his sovereignty. Neither was God the Father who gave Pilate the power.

    This is called providence, not sovereignty. The decisions Pilate made that day were his own. If God allowed him to be in that position to make that decision at that time because he was a weak unprincipled man, then it is the providence of God that allowed it and not his sovereignty that demanded it.
     
    #107 JD731, Jul 13, 2023
  8. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    False. No one ever had power or authority over Jesus, or they would be God.
     
    #108 Piper, Jul 13, 2023
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  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. Rom 6:9 NKJV
    knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; YLT

    Is that a true statement?

    Heb 5:7 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,
    Gal 1:1 YLT Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead --
     
    #109 percho, Jul 13, 2023
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Seems that some people, Piper, have difficulty understanding that Jesus had both a divine nature and a sinless human nature while on this earth. He is the God-man.
     
    #110 KenH, Jul 13, 2023
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  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Your problem is with logic and reason.


    Hebrews 2:5-9
    5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    You can never figure this out with your mindset. The men who put him to death were not in subjection to him. He put himself under subjection to them.
     
    #111 JD731, Jul 19, 2023
  12. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    True. They want Jesus to be les than God. There was a name for that in the 3rd century.
     
    #112 Piper, Jul 20, 2023
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Some men were chosen by God before the foundation to be saved from their sins through the redemption provided in the blood of Christ
     
    #113 Brightfame52, Aug 19, 2023
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Since His incarnation, He has forever both His divine nature and human nature with now His post resurrection immortal body of flesh and bone.
     
    #114 37818, Aug 19, 2023
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="37818, post: 2858423, member: 14338"His post resurrection immortal body of flesh and bone.[/QUOTE]

    Does a spiritual body have "flesh and bone"?

    1 Corinthians 15:44-53 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    (emphasis mine)
     
    #115 KenH, Aug 19, 2023
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Luke 24:39, ". . . Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. . . ."

    Philippians 3:21, ". . . Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, . . ."

    1 John 3:2, ". . . when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ."
     
    #116 37818, Aug 19, 2023
  17. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I have a difficult time conceiving of flesh and bone being in heaven. Now on the new earth that Christ will establish at His second coming, I could more easily conceive of flesh and bone. Then again, none of us have seen a spiritual body so maybe it will composed of something different from flesh and bone.

    Personally, I am not concerned about it. God is absolutely totally sovereign. I trust Him. Things will be in the new heavens and earth as He has decreed.
     
    #117 KenH, Aug 19, 2023
  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    The question is: what is the foundation of the Christian faith, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or something else, like pre creation election? Your answer to this question is more important than you can imagine. But, you may know this already.
     
    #118 JD731, Aug 19, 2023
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Pre creation election has its proper mention in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, for it is those for whom Christ died, was buried, and resurrected in behalf of specifically. There is no gospel of Gods grace without specifying that friend.. So election is foundational
     
    #119 Brightfame52, Aug 20, 2023
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