Featured #2 What do you Teach other men that "a Church is"? What do Landmarks Teach men that "a Church is"?

Since my O.P., is regarding what I am qualifying to be:

it gets to be a kind of free-for-all, as to where others
may be getting at or coming from someone who professes
a "church" to be something else entirely, from what I am saying.

By saying, "The Lord's churches are spiritual bodies",
I am referring exclusively to
Organized Local Divine Institutions as Governing Bodies
Commissioned to Conduct God's Business,
as being the only kind of "church" that kind be discussed, Biblically.

I am saying, then, that, "The Lord's churches are spiritual bodies",
because they are the only Institutions on Earth
(those Apostles gathered who were at the time Jesus was speaking
to "them", meaning that He was speaking to "them" as His assembled Biblical "church" Organization, as above,
and were already Jesus' "church" that He had founded;
i.e., He placed in the church, first Apostles, etc.),

and then, it was Jesus' "church" that He had promised to send
and/or pray to the Father to send, etc., "another Comfortor",

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,
that He may abide with you forever;" John 14:16.

That is the Shekinah Glory that was to permanently indwell
Jesus' Organized Local Divine Institutions as Governing Bodies
Commissioned to Conduct God's Business,
as it says in that verse, "He may abide with you forever",
with "you", again being an indication of those Apostles gathered
who were at the time Jesus was speaking
were assembled as a Biblical "church" Organization of His, as above,
and were already Jesus' "church" that He had founded.

Jesus was promising to send another Comforter,
to Indwell His "church(es)", "forever", until He Comes Again.

That promise was fulfilled on The Day of Pentecost,
just as John the Baptist had predicted,

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
but he that cometh after me is mightier than I,
whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:
He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost..." Matthew 3:11.

That is what is meant by The Churches that Jesus Built
being said to be:

We don't want to say that the Lord couldn't have His Biblical "church" Organization up and running before Pentecost
and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit coming upon His first church
there at Jerusalem, to dwell within her, since that
wouldn't be saying much for the Personal Presence of Jesus Christ
with His Apostles, would it?

Looks like you may be placing Jesus' Glorification at His Ascension(?)

I think I'll put Jesus' Glorification at His Resurrection.

At any rate, Jesus' churches have been Indwelt
by the Presence of The Holy Spirit, fully and officially,
since the Day of Pentecost.

"In whom ye also are builded together
for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:22.

That is were "ye" are the saints in church at Ephesus,
who are Jesus Biblical "church" Organization,
"builded together" and that should sound very familiar,
i.e., "I will build My church", and they, as one of Jesus' churches
have been Indwelt by the Presence of The Holy Spirit,
and are, "an habitation of God through the Spirit."

The Shekinah Glory Indwelling His Presence as The Holy Spirit
is the church at Ephesus' "Candlestick".

Since they had been warned in Revelation, by Jesus,
that He could remove their Candlestick, not just any "church"
can be said to still have a "Candlestick", right?,
if they ever did in the first place.

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen,
and repent, and do the first works;

"or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent,"
(Revelation 2:5).

That this was not restricted to the Ephesian church alone,
nor yet to the seven churches addressed, is evident from verse 7:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit saith unto the churches . . . "


"And when he had said this, he breathed on them,
and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" John 20:22

This was a foretaste of the event to take place on Pentecost
with Jesus Imparting to His assembled Apostles, who certainly
already were personally indwelt by the Divine Nature of the Holy Spirit

where this was Jesus Enabling them with the Supernatural
Instantaneous Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Spirit, for their use
in the Apostles' ministries verifying their association and Source
as being the Divine Lord God of the Universe.

See the new thread:
What is the Relationship of Pentecost to THE CHURCHES THAT JESUS BUILT?

 

I'm agreeing with a Scofield Bible note?

Oh well, I guess I use a Scofield Bible don't I?

I'm just known more for reading it from the top down!

Instead of from the bottom up!

Good note from him. Very good. Informative.

 

I can't tell whether you are advocating what Logos1560 mentioned
in his quotes from the link below,
or if you are pushing for the return of casting lots(?)

Logos1560's comments from:
A Short Description of Historic Baptists, by Raul Enyedi Bocsa, Romania.

CJP69:

Hey! Everybody!

CJP69 says,

"THERE ISN'T ANY WAY POSSIBLE FOR YOU" (ALAN GROSS?)

"(OR ANYONE YOU" (ALAN GROSS?)
"WANT TO COPY/PASTE FROM) !!!!!!!?????

"can make a biblical case..........." (????!!!!)

"that any church should operate under the authority of a popular vote......"

Whew.

I never.

Lord's sakes alive!

(what?....)

The Doctrine of The Church, by T.P. Simmons.

"VI. THE GOVERNMENT OF THE CHURCH.

"New Testament churches were independent and democratic in government.

"This fact is seen in-

1. THE SELECTION OF MATTHIAS.

"While the method used in the selection of Matthias
is not the usual method of voting employed today,
Luke's account (Acts 1:23-26) implies that
the entire church participated in his selection.

"They appointed" (vs. 23), "they prayed" (vs. 24),
and "they gave forth their lots."

The entire group of one hundred and twenty (vs. 15) is the most natural antecedent of the pronoun "they" in these expressions.

2. THE SELECTION OF THE SEVEN DEACONS.

"When the need arose for these seven servants of the church,
the apostles did not assume the authority of appointing them,
but "called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said,

"It is not reason that we should leave the Word of God, and serve tables.

"Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report
full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business"
(Acts 6:2, 3).

"And the saying pleased the whole multitude, and they chose"
the seven men whose names are given.

The multitude of the disciples, that is, the church, did the choosing.

3. THE SETTING APART OF BARNABAS AND SAUL.

"In this we see the independence of New Testament churches.

The church at Antioch, although it was much younger than the church at Jerusalem, acted in this matter independent of the church at Jerusalem
and without so much as consulting the church at Jerusalem. Cf. Acts 13:1-3.

Neither did the church consult the apostles.

4. THE EXCLUSION AND RESTORATION
OF THE INCESTUOUS MAN AT CORINTH.

"Paul addressed the church as a whole about this matter. Cf. 1 Cor. 5.

And in his recommendation concerning the restoration of this man (2 Cor. 2:6)
he speaks of his punishment as having been inflicted by "many,"
literally, the greater part or majority.

This distinctly implies that the church was democratic
in the exclusion of the man.

It was not done by the elders, nor by the deacons,
but by the many or the majority.

5. THE SELECTION OF TRAVELING COMPANIONS FOR PAUL.

Cf. 1 Cor. 16:3; 1 Cor. 8:19, 23. Paul recognized the right of the churches to have their own representatives accompany him in his travels among the churches in making up the offering for the saints at Jerusalem.

We, no doubt, have these "messengers of the church" mentioned in Acts 20:4.

Thus Paul was not a lord over God's heritage, but recognized their right of self-government.

He speaks of these brethren as having been selected of the churches.

This implies that the churches acted as bodies in their selection.

They were not appointed by the elders.

The only way a church can act as a body is by some method of voting.

Any proper method of voting is an expression of democracy.

6 THE DUTY AND RESPONSIBILITY OF THE WHOLE CHURCH TO:

(1) Maintain Unity of Action.

See Rom. 12:16; 1 Cor. 1:10; 2 Cor. 13:11; Eph. 4.3; Phil. 1:27; 1 Pet. 3:8.

Strong very justly remarks on these passages that they are not
"mere counsels to passive submission), such as might be given under a hierarchy, or to the members of a society of the Jesuits;
"they are counsels to cooperation and to harmonious judgment."

(2) Preserve Pure Doctrine and Practice.

1 Tim. 3.15; Jude 3. See also the exhortations to the churches in Rev. 2 and 3.

(3) Guard the Ordinances.

1 Cor. 11:2, 23, 24.

"And we may conclude by saving
that in no instance in the New Testament
do we see the independency
and democracy of the church contradicted.

 

"Christ is King" is our position.

"the chairman of an elder board" is your position, isn't it(?)

We view Jesus Christ as being The Head of each individual independent
local assembly, with that local body acting under His Headship
and Lordship, as King, "covenanted together according to the Biblical pattern
of a “one member, one vote,” spirit-led democracy."

"Bryan Station Baptist Church is a local, visible,
called-out assembly of scripturally baptized believers, covenanted together
according to the Biblical pattern of a “one member, one vote,” spirit-led democracy;
whose purpose is the carrying out of the Great Commission of Matthew 28:16-20.

"The Bible teaches that only such a church as this is authorized
and constructed to be able to do so."

Just for kicks.

THE LORD'S SUPPER.

I Corinthians 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,
to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints

I Corinthians 11:2 "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

17 "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

20 "When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper."

23 "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me."

33 "Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another."

BAPTISM:

A Treatise of Baptism, by Henry Danvers, 1674

Wherein the baptizing of Believers
is proved to be the only Baptism from Apostles' Doctrine teaching the same.

Acts. 2. 37, 38; "And when they heard this, they were pricked at the Heart, and said unto Peter, and to the rest of the Apostles, Men and Brethren, what shall we do?

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 8. 36, 37. "And the eunuch said, See, here is Water, what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said unto him,, If thou believest with all thine Heart, thou mayst."

Acts 10. 42; "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testified, That it is he, which was ordained of God to be Judge of quick and dead; to him gave all the Prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him, shall receive Remission of sins.


"While Peter spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word, &c. Then said Peter, Can any man forbid Water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

"And he commanded them to be baptized."

Acts 16. 29; "And the Keeper of the Prison
fell down before Paul and Silas, and said, Sirs, What must I do to be saved; and he said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy House. And accordingly he believing in God and his House, as it is said,

v. 34. "was baptized he and all his straight way.

"To which may be added the Apostolic Order
in laying down the Principles of the Doctrine of Christ."

First, Repentance from dead works.

Secondly, Faith towards God.

Thirdly, The Doctrine of Baptisms, Heb. 6.12.

"Bede saith, That men were first to be instructed into the knowledge of the Truth, then to be baptized, as Christ hath taught, because without Faith it was impossible to please God. Magdeburg. Cent. 8. p. 220.

"Erasmus, in his Paraphrase upon Mat. 28. Observeth, that the Apostles were commanded first to Teach, and then to Baptize. The Jews were brought by Ceremonies to the Knowledge of the Truth, but Christians must learn first.

"So that doth it not from hence necessarily follow, that if the Apostles only taught, that persons should be baptized after Repentance, and Faith, according to the Commission, and that there is no instance to be found of any other teaching, that then such should be baptized, and no other.

"And for any to introduce another practice, it is not only contrary to Christ's Commission, but contradictory to the Apostles teachings."

 

What they translated "church" is from "ekklesia" and is always a local assembly.

"When, in His first use of the word, in Matthew 16:18, our Lord says: "On this rock I will build my "ecclesia" while the "my" distinguished His "ecclesia" from the Greek state "ecclesia" and the Old Testament "ecclesia," the word itself naturally retains its ordinary meaning...

"Commonly, that is, in nearly all the uses, it means: A particular assembly of Christ's baptized disciples on earth, as 'The church of God which is at Corinth.'

"We add to this class necessarily all of the abstract or generic uses of the word, for whenever the abstract or generic finds concrete expression, or takes operative shape, it is always a particular assembly." 8

Just you said here, about Matthew 18:17;

That is correct, of course, making all of the previous "bright ideas" of men,
listed in your post, incorrect, who were taking Lordship over God's heritage
and introducing their own brand on how God's business is to be conducted.

Correct, this time, again.

We'll go with Philologically and Theologically correct, every time.

from:
THE TESTIMONY OF THE SCRIPTURES.
Christ's Church Revealed In The Scriptures

"And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord..." (1 Thess. 1:6).

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God
which in Judea are in Christ Jesus..." (1 Thess. 2:14).

"New Testament Baptist churches "mimic" the first church and others like it.

"They insist on not only believing the same doctrines
but also following the godly pattern set before us by those churches.

"This belief that the New Testament is not only the guide for our faith,
but also the pattern for our practice is a second principle
which sets genuine Baptists apart from others.

"We have no right to interject our own ideas, beliefs,
practices or traditions into the worship and service of God.

"To do so nullifies God's Word, for after all, He has revealed in the Bible
everything He wants us to know about spiritual things.

*The following verses clearly instruct us as to our obligation
to be subject to the Bible in all things. Consider these warnings:

(Mark 7:13) "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition,
which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

(Deut 4:2) "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you,
neither shall ye diminish ought from it,
that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God
which I command you."

(Deut 12:32) "What thing soever I command you,
observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

(Rev 22:18) "For I testify unto every man
that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book."

"It is devastatingly serious to tamper with the Word of God
either in theological matters or in the matter of observance,
practice and celebration."

"Among those churches called Baptist are to be found people who have been brought by God Himself to stand upon the New Testament as their only rule of faith and practice. They see in it both precept and pattern for acceptable worship and service.

"We believe this is the only course well-pleasing to God, the Divine Author of the Bible. If we have no Bible for either our doctrine or our practice, abandon such things as innovations of depraved mankind. On the other hand, if the Bible teaches it, we who "tremble at His word" can do nothing more or less than believe and obey it!"

"ecclesia (ek-klay-see'-ah); a calling out, i.e. (concretely)
a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation..." 7

"New Testament usage, secular usage and the Septuagint usage of the word "ecclesia" indicate it was only and always used of an organized, congregating body of people in a given locality."

"One of the biggest hindrances to a proper understanding of New Testament church truth is the notion that the word church means more than one thing."

"B.H. Carroll (1843-1914) was the founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and for thirty years served as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Waco, Texas.

"Elder Carroll wrote the following:

"Our Lord and the New Testament writers
neither coined this word Greek "ecclesia" nor employed it in any unusual sense.

"Before their time it was in common use, of well-understood signification, and subject like any other word to varied employment, according to the established laws of language. That is, it might be used abstractly, or generically, or particularly, or prospectively, without losing its essential meaning...

"What, then, etymologically, is the meaning of this word? Its primary meaning is: An organized assembly, whose members have been properly called out from private homes or business to attend to public affairs. This definition necessarily implies prescribed conditions of membership..."

"Multitudes have not followed the plain teachings of the Bible and have left the Lord's churches to follow some human leader. Others either lacking knowledge or unconcerned with truth, have started their own "churches" without considering or understanding the New Testament doctrine and pattern of church truth.

"This was the case even in the days of Christ's apostles. Consider these verses:

(2 Cor. 2:17) "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

(2 Cor. 4:2) "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."

(1 John 2:19) "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

"Many churches of our own time have been started by persons unwilling to follow historic Biblical doctrine and practice. Some openly "corrupt the word of God" and are guilty of "handling the word of God deceitfully." Others "were not all of us" and therefore "they went out from us." This has been done for so long and by so many that few in today's religious world even consider that they have no right to found their own churches.

So, just like with everything you wrote
about the members of each church
selecting their own officers, by vote,

at #89 #2 What do you Teach other men that "a Church is"?
What do Landmarks Teach men that "a Church is"?,

the same is the case with church discipline;

"The second mention of "church" in the New Testament
is in Matt 18:15-18
and clearly demonstrates the authority of Christ
as entrusted to His church:

"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee,
go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone:
if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

"But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more,
that in the mouth of two or three witnesses
every word may be established.

"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:
but if he neglect to hear the church,
let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

"Verily I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven:
and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

"Notice that neither the pastor nor some imagined board
has authority to act in this matter.

"The matter must be brought before the church (the membership)
and they are to seek the mind of the Lord in the matter.

"The decision (vote) of the church in obedience to Christ
is binding in Heaven as well as within the confines of the church.

"Here the church is explicitly authorized and instructed
to exclude from her fellowship those whose behavior
brings reproach upon the Head of each true church."

 

From the mind of an Episcopal, that is quite a surreal observation.

You would think that it would be altogether different and that folks
could be able to be brought to things like,
"one body" doesn't mean "two bodies", for example,
and see "a church", as a local assembly which is what the Greek word means
and the same with a body of believers being a local body of believers, etc.,
but don't bet on it.

It's like Joseph Cross said there, first:

"Of an invisible church in this world I know nothing:
"the Word of God says nothing:
"nor can anything of the kind exist."

It is an argument from silence, no different than sayings "things evolve",
when there is no demonstrable science of that we can observe anywhere,
or "Faith Healers" that 'wear glasses', etc , so for me,
there is not a whole lot that I can say that I know about nothing.

Do you have "an invisible church in this world", in your brain, Revmitchell?

Looks like Joseph Cross takes exception to that, in a big way, if so.

But, I don't push the point.

"Joseph Cross (Episcopal) in his book, "Coals From the Altar" says:
"We hear much of the invisible church
as contra-distinguished from the church visible.

"Of an invisible church in this world I know nothing:
"the Word of God says nothing:
"nor can anything of the kind exist, except in the brain of a heretic."

Whereas, I wasn't born to condemn people or make fun of them
for what they sincerely believe, to a point, depending on how cocky they get.

I did ask an "Evolutionist" yesterday that believes the Jews
collected writings they liked, to explain where the "Bible" came from,
instead of being from GOD!!!, etc (?) if they think they came from a monkey,
and let that fall where it may.

Fair.

So, "my job" is not to be attacking people for their willful ignorance,
and I just skip it.

However, I find that there has been a lot of information disseminated on this thread that has been overlooked that is extremely important to God,
and as much as I'd like to sympathize with people being unintentionally busted,
and just triggered by God, by the wordings quoted of the beliefs of others,
I have to admit, that although I restain from inflammatory insults as a rule,
for me to have even noticed this one would have been Supernatural.

That is because, for me to see "the invisible edible invisible" whatever it is(?),
as being "heretical", would be the most common place occurrence of the day.

I just didn't notice it, in the least.

Sorry, if my posting Br. Cross's quote with regard to that offended you.

I'm also sorry, if people reinventing God's Words with their own, offends Him.

So, there is a balance, and I am all for avoiding both.

Having said this about that, the reason I may have overlooked this remark
is because my home church would invite a visitor to sit and listen, but they
would not be considered as a candidate for baptism, or membership,
given that they hold a position embracing "an Invisible"(?) nothing teaching.

We do not fellowship with other religious societies which teach such a thing.

Any member who professed this belief would not be considered to preach,
teach a class, witness on visitation, or be involved in any church speaking.

In the event that the individual persisted in any form of sowing discord,
they would be censored for promoting a pure, in-stage, Bible schism,
up to and including a recommendation for consideration of a church vote,
with respect to Doctrinal Heresy.

So, while in the micro-environment of The BB, where I'm pretty sure
that telling someone, "Get behind me, Satan", would be viewed
as "not-Christ-like", for example, I have no initiative for needlessly
causing anyone some form of Forum Destress, on purpose.

Maybe if it did any good, I might, but as you can see it's counterproductive.

I'm not here to cause a ruckus. My colored fonts do that plenty enough.

For example, my home church is Pre-Millienial. I am Amillennial.
Do I bring it up there? Well, I slipped something out one time in a couple words
about their former pastor
"being an Amillennialist, NOW.... (after he's passed on)."

Get it?

It "didn't sit well" with their grapevine....

It's supposed to have been an "inside baseball" joke.

Since, now that he is with the Lord, he's been taught MY POSITION, right?

I trust that he would have taken it just that way.

The trick is, that you just have to be the first one that claims it, "to wins".

Only, I didn't win that one.

Believe that. He pastored for 52 years and they are all related...

And you know what? They saw that as me accusing him of being a Heretic.

I feel ya.

Sorry, again, for the friendly fire. I take it back.

Unless, you come our way, which you're not ready for, as we both realize.

Then, we would have to talk.