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Why Do Both Paul and Peter refer to The Jewish Foundation of the Church as a Nation

J

JD731

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
Beware of conflating Abraham with the nation of Israel.
'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.'
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You guys wear this verse out and reject the Abrahamic covenant and all it's promises to the physical seed of Abraham. All your mental brilliance is lost because of your stubborn pride in your refusal to believe the word of God and to make sense of it. Abraham is never said to be Israel or even a nation. Abraham is the originator of Israel by virtue of being his "father" and without him there would not be a family or a nation of Israel. Jacob/Israel is not the only son of Abraham who became a family and nation but he is the only one with whom God made an everlasting covenant to benefit the other nations and families on the earth by charging this nation to produce the savior of all mankind and so, their spiritual blessings depend on this family Israel. Not only this family broadly but God focused on one son, family, nation, namely Judah to accomplish his redemptive purposes.

I do not mean to falsely accuse you and if you are a believer in the Abrahamic covenant and understand it as being the guarantee of world wide atonement then you can forgive me for including you.

Paul defends salvation by grace through faith without the deeds of the law in this chapter by comparing the Abrahamic Covenant with the Mosaic covenant and citing their distinct purposes. The Law, he said, was a temporary covenant, an addendum, to the eternal Abraham covenant in which the Covenant of salvation was made and would end when the promise was realized. Not only Abraham and Israel his son would benefit but all the families of the earth But Israel certainly would and those who received the promise (the Spirit of life) would be born of God and become the Israel of God. Physically they would still be the sons of Abraham through Jacob but would be the sons of God by the new birth.


Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Abraham the beginning:
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
The cross first for salvation = the promise of the Spirit
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The Spirit came on the gentiles in Acts 10, AD 40.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. See Ge 12.

This was before any nations came from Abraham.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Now we know that Israel was the highway for the seed who was promised through Abraham. The Law of Moses was given 430 years after the covenant promise to Abraham. This means the Law had no effect on his covenant. It remained in effect after the Law.

"the law? It was added (to the Abraham Covenant as an addendum) because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made" V 19

The purpose of the Law was complete when Jesus came.

God bound himself with an oath to the Abrahamic covenant.

He 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@JD731,
I think that perhaps I understand the Abrahamic covenant better than you do.

The covenant with Abraham is revealed to us in four stages:-
1. Gen 12:1-3. The covenant Announced. The word ‘covenant’ is not mentioned here but Peter in Acts 3:23 makes it clear that God’s initial promises to Abram were part of the covenant. The three parts of the covenant, Land, Nation, Seed are made clear.
2. Gen 15. The Covenant Transacted. The word ‘covenant’ is used in connection with Abraham for the first time, and a sacrifice is made. It is important to note that circumcision is not part of the covenant at this stage. The blessings promised to Abram are on the basis of his faith alone.
3. Gen 17. The Covenant Instituted. He receives a new name, and the sign of the covenant, circumcision,
4. Gen 23. The Covenant Confirmed. Abraham’s faith is proved by his actions (cf. Heb 11:17) and the promises repeated.

The Abrahamic Covenant is a ‘covenant of promise’ (Eph 2:12). The word promise is used quite frequently in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Acts 7:5; Rom 4:12; 9:4-9; Gal 3:5-29; 4:28; Heb 6:13-20; 11:9, 13, 17). The promises are ‘in Christ’ (Gal 3:17 NKJV. cf. 2Cor 1:20) as well as ‘of Christ’ (Gal 3:16); that is, they refer to Christ and are for those who are His by faith. The ‘Seed of the woman,’ spoken of in Gen 3:15, is shown to be also the Seed of Abraham, but the blessing is to the whole world. The promises are entirely gracious. There was nothing in Abraham to make him worthy of being the recipient of these promises. He was not brought up in a household that worshipped Yahveh; ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the river in old times: and they served other gods’ (Joshua 24:2-3).

With whom was the Abrahamic Covenant made? Only with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These last two received the Abrahamic promises not through their relationship to Abraham, but directly from God (Gen 26:2-5; 28:12-15). The covenant is made with no one else. If I believe that God is going to make a great nation out of me, or make me a blessing to all nations, or give my descendants the Land of Canaan as a possession, I am more than likely to be deceiving myself. Nor could an Israelite appropriate the promises to himself; any of Abraham’s descendants other than Isaac and Jacob might be childless. But when we place our faith in the promised Seed, we may appropriate the promised blessing as we become a child of Abraham by faith (Gal 3:7) and inherit the heavenly country that Abraham sought and found (Heb 11:15-16). The covenant ‘with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ is repeatedly mentioned in Scripture (Exod 2:24; 32:13; Lev 26:42; Num 32:11; 2Kings 13:23; 1Chron 16:16ff; Psalm 105:9 etc.) but no one else is ever spoken of as being in the covenant with them.

The covenant promises to Abraham were of land, nation and seed. Each of these has both an earthly and a heavenly fulfilment. There is an earthly land of Canaan which the Israelites eventually came to inherit, but we are told in Romans 4:13 that the promise was for the whole world (cf. Matt 5:5; Rev 5:10), and in Heb 11:16 that Abraham looked forward to a heavenly city. These are fundamentally the same promise and refer to the new heavens and new earth and also to the heavenly Jerusalem of Rev 21;1-3 which Abraham will inherit along with all believers at the end of time. Likewise, there was an earthly nation descended from Abraham who came to live in Canaan, but we learn from Gal 3:7 etc. that believers of all nations are his true descendants and it is they who will inherit the heavenly promises. Next, there is a physical seed to whom are given physical promises- a great nation and a physical land for it to dwell in. These promises were received by Israel in full (Josh 21:43-45). This seed ‘after the flesh’ (Gal 4:29) is represented by Ishmael. It is most important to understand that Ishmael is not in the Covenant. ‘And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before you!” Then God said, “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him”’ (Gen 17:18-19). Nothing could be clearer than this; Ishmael is not in the covenant, although he receives the covenant sign (v26). Ishmael, though not an Israelite, is a type of Israel after the flesh. He receives the earthly promises (Gen 17:20) and the outward sign (v.25), but not the spiritual blessings (Gal 4:30; Acts 7:51-53). He persecutes the True Seed (Gen 21:9; John 8:37ff; Gal 4:29). His circumcision is of no avail to him since he lacks what circumcision symbolized; a humble, circumcised heart (Jer 9:25-26).

There is also a spiritual seed of Abraham; those who are in Christ, the True Seed, by faith. These are they who are looking for a heavenly country just as Abraham was. Just as Abraham did not receive an earthly inheritance (Acts 7:5 etc), so the true Israelite knew that Canaan was not his true home (Psalm 39:12; 119:19. cf. 1Peter 2:11). He put no confidence in his circumcision, but rather his circumcision spoke to him of the promised Seed of Abraham who should come (cf. Luke 2:25-32; Phil 3:3).
The spiritual promises of the Abrahamic Covenant never applied to those who were physical descendants of Abraham, but to those of all nations (including Israel, of course) who are in Christ by faith. Very solemn are the words of our Lord on this matter: “And I say to you that many will come from east and west and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, but the [physical] sons of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 8:11-12).

So we see that the Abrahamic Covenant is tied up with the coming of the promised son- the miracle child (Gen 15:2-6). Isaac is not Christ, but he is a type or foreshadowing of Christ: long promised, born miraculously, persecuted by his own kin (Ishmael), offered up by his father, who received him (figuratively- Heb 11:19) back from the dead. The children of God come from him (Rom 9:7; Heb 3:5b). I have wriiten elsewhere that there are indications in Romans 11 that there may be a great revival among modern-day Jews before our Lord's return. I pray that there may be, just as I also pray that there will be one amongst the Arabs.
 
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J

JD731

Well-Known Member
kyredneck said:
Paul wrote this to the church at Corinth:

1st Corinthians Chapter 12

2​

Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led.

If they're no longer gentiles what are they?
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Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Cor 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Somehow the word "when" got into the text and predictably caused confusion.
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JD731 said:
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Cor 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Somehow the word "when" got into the text and predictably caused confusion.
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It appears that almost every extant Greek manuscript - the oldest as well as the vast mjority - include the word "when."
However, I don't see that it makes much difference. 'Ye were Gentiles.' i.e. Ye are not Gentiles any more; so, as @kyredneck asked, what are they now? Rom. 2:28-29; Gal. 3:7, and Phil. 3:3 give the answer.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
With whom was the Abrahamic Covenant made? Only with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These last two received the Abrahamic promises not through their relationship to Abraham, but directly from God (Gen 26:2-5; 28:12-15). The covenant is made with no one else. If I believe that God is going to make a great nation out of me, or make me a blessing to all nations, or give my descendants the Land of Canaan as a possession, I am more than likely to be deceiving myself. Nor could an Israelite appropriate the promises to himself; any of Abraham’s descendants other than Isaac and Jacob might be childless. But when we place our faith in the promised Seed, we may appropriate the promised blessing as we become a child of Abraham by faith (Gal 3:7) and inherit the heavenly country that Abraham sought and found (Heb 11:15-16). The covenant ‘with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ is repeatedly mentioned in Scripture (Exod 2:24; 32:13; Lev 26:42; Num 32:11; 2Kings 13:23; 1Chron 16:16ff; Psalm 105:9 etc.) but no one else is ever spoken of as being in the covenant with them.
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Rom 9: I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

You are not living in reality, Martin. The covenants of promise ware made with this whole family who were the "children of Israel." This Abrahamic covenant has not been revoked because of Israel's sins but is an everlasting covenant. God has bound himself under an oath to bring every promise of it to pass, including making of Israel a great nation in the promised land grant. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will live in a resurrected body in the new earth which is physical. Whatever Israel's claim on the land grant given by God in the Covenant he made with Abraham and confirmed to Isaac and Jacob is legitimate and eternal.

Romans 9 was written by Paul the apostle in 58 AD, 28 years after he had poured out his promise of the Spirit on Israel in Acts 2 and 18 years after he poured out the Spirit on gentiles in Acts 10. In this 9th chapter of Romans we learn that in the providence of God that the physical seed of Abraham were divided into two parts and that those many who would not believe in Jesus Christ were distinct from those few who believed and became the children of God by the new birth.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (circumcision in the flesh as ID is now replaced by the Spirit in the heart to identify Israel)
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (this means the family of God MUST come through Isaac instead of all the other sons of Abraham who became great families and nations)
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Remember we read in Galatians that the Law ended at the cross of Christ and faith began.

Paul then accuses Israel of falling short of God's salvation by insisting on holding on to the law while excluding faith as their expression of following God. This holds Israel completely responsible for the Jews being broken off and replaced by grafted in gentiles. You men hold God responsible for what happens next but it is the providence of God that directed history to reach his intended end..

Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Remember God's sworn oath to keep the Abrahamic covenant. He must save Israel as a people and give them the land he promised to them to dwell in.

But not during this age.
The context from Romans 7:1 through Romans 11:12 had been to Jews and proselytes. In Romans 11:13 and following he is addressing gentiles in context. It will help your understanding if this is noted.

Romans 11 tells us how God is going to keep the hope of Israel alive through the very small remnant of believers in Christ called the "remnant according to the election of grace," and fashion the church from both Jew and gentile believers, a heavenly entity. When this family is complete then the purge from the earth of all unbelievers during the great tribulation and the deliverance of the few who are left when all Israel will finally be saved without any more remnant. The importance of Ro 11 cannot be overemphasized.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, (how long?) until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What then?

(remember, written to gentile believers).
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Believe the words and note the context and you will be safe.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
It appears that almost every extant Greek manuscript - the oldest as well as the vast mjority - include the word "when."
However, I don't see that it makes much difference. 'Ye were Gentiles.' i.e. Ye are not Gentiles any more; so, as @kyredneck asked, what are they now? Rom. 2:28-29; Gal. 3:7, and Phil. 3:3 give the answer.
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My mother was a devout believer in Jesus Christ. She was a woman. Are you and @ky on this website trying to convince us that you have verses in the Bible that says those distinctions are eliminated when the sinner gets saved. Paul offered himself as proof positive that he remained a Jew
after many years of being saved.

He talks about Jews and gentiles receiving the Spirit of promise in Galatians, which he wrote in AD 49. Nine years later he wrote Romans in AD 58.

I am going to quote verses from both letters.

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ s, then are ye Abraham s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ro 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

The key is "standing." Believers are children of God when they receive the Spirit and one has the same standing in Christ as the other. It does not means one is morphed into something else when he is saved.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
The Abrahamic Covenant - An everlasting Covenant

Ps 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.

My question in my op concerned a nation. Few believes the promises of God is applicable to whom he makes them. The problem is unbelief. I will post some words of God through the prophet Jeremiah and wonder why most people here will not believe them.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I have not received a satisfactory answer thus far.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
neither have i
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Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Mine is not. I have been on a learning curve for over 50 years that has resulted in my coming to realize that God gives understanding to those who study and believes his words. God knows and uses the words nation and church, Jew and gentile and words like strangers and foreigners etc with purpose and meaning. I have learned that since I know so little I must trust what God has inspired whether I can immediately grasp his meaning or not. That is why I know that God is going to have a nation of Israel for everlasting and it, the nation, is separate and different in the kingdom and in it's expression from his church. The nation is physical and earthly and the church is spiritual and heavenly. I have quoted Jesus Christ saying it on this very thread. What has surprised me is that after I quoted Jesus Christ accurately nobody on here believed what he said. Well, I think Percho did. Fortunately it was not me they didn't believe although it lended to calling dispensationalists uninformed. Some people seem to think that disagreeing with the words of Jesus makes them look intelligent and scholarly.

So, I am going to quote Jesus again and ask you what you think. But first, let me set the stage. The conversation is in Matthew 19 and took place in the city of Jericho as Jesus was heading to Jerusalem for the upcoming Passover festival where he would be the Passover Lamb and sacrifice himself for the sins of the world., Peter and the other apostles were travelling with him and all of them had been with him throughout the full course of his earthly ministry. You can read all the accounts of the 4 gospel writers and see that Jesus preached the whole time "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" and instructed these men to preach this same message to no one but to the house of Israel. Now, obviously by the conversation that follows these men were convinced this kingdom was about to be set up by the Lord and so they asked questions. Here is a part of the exchange.


Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Time out. Peter no doubt heard that exchange and it prompted his question having understood that they had forsaken everything in their lives to follow him and if anything, they had less riches as a result. By contrast in Peters thinking, if the rich could hardly get into the kingdom, what would the poor like them have when they entered the kingdom.

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is what Jesus said to these 12 particularly.

And following is what he said to the others generally.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Do you believe the words of Jesus Christ here without having to add to or take away in order to line it up with your teaching?
 
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Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
JD731 said:
Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Mine is not. I have been on a learning curve for over 50 years that has resulted in my coming to realize that God gives understanding to those who study and believes his words. God knows and uses the words nation and church, Jew and gentile and words like strangers and foreigners etc with purpose and meaning. I have learned that since I know so little I must trust what God has inspired whether I can immediately grasp his meaning or not. That is why I know that God is going to have a nation of Israel for everlasting and it, the nation, is separate and different in the kingdom and in it's expression from his church. The nation is physical and earthly and the church is spiritual and heavenly. I have quoted Jesus Christ saying it on this very thread. What has surprised me is that after I quoted Jesus Christ accurately nobody on here believed what he said. Well, I think Percho did. Fortunately it was not me they didn't believe although it lended to calling dispensationalists uninformed. Some people seem to think that disagreeing with the words of Jesus makes them look intelligent and scholarly.

So, I am going to quote Jesus again and ask you what you think. But first, let me set the stage. The conversation is in Matthew 19 and took place in the city of Jericho as Jesus was heading to Jerusalem for the upcoming Passover festival where he would be the Passover Lamb and sacrifice himself for the sins of the world., Peter and the other apostles were travelling with him and all of them had been with him throughout the full course of his earthly ministry. You can read all the accounts of the 4 gospel writers and see that Jesus preached the whole time "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" and instructed these men to preach this same message to no one but to the house of Israel. Now, obviously by the conversation that follows these men were convinced this kingdom was about to be set up by the Lord and so they asked questions. Here is a part of the exchange.


Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Time out. Peter no doubt heard that exchange and it prompted his question having understood that they had forsaken everything in their lives to follow him and if anything, they had less riches as a result. By contrast in Peters thinking, if the rich could hardly get into the kingdom, what would the poor like them have when they entered the kingdom.

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is what Jesus said to these 12 particularly.

And following is what he said to the others generally.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Do you believe the words of Jesus Christ here without having to add to or take away in order to line it up with your teaching?
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The sign of the covenant that you say is eternal was circumcision. Circumcision is no more. It's nothing but mutilation. Paul said, You want circumcision? Just get castrated.

The sign being no more, the covenant it signified is no more.
 
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J

JD731

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
The sign of the covenant that you say is eternal was circumcision. Circumcision is no more. It's nothing but mutilation. Paul said, You want circumcision? Just get castrated.

The sign being no more, the covenant it signified is no more.
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Ps 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.

Neither God nor I said that circumcision is eternal nor did he say the Abrahamic covenant is made with you. The covenant is made with Abraham and confirmed to his second son Isaac and to Jacob and to Israel for an everlasting covenant. He confirmed the covenant with an oath, not with circumcision. The promise of God that he would bless all the families of the earth through his seed was not given to you or me but it was given to these fathers of Israel and our salvation does not depend on circumcision or a promise of God to us that he will provide salvation for us, which he has, but it depended upon this covenant and the oath that was attached to it. This salvation, which we learn is the Spirit, is the only part of the Abrahamic covenant that pertains to any of us gentiles today. No gentile has ever been under any law of God to be circumcised as long as the world has been created, and never will be. God made the covenant with Abraham before he was circumcised.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

I hope you can see the logic here. God is trying to use Abraham as his supreme example of the superiority of faith over law. God gave the Abrahamic covenant to him before he gave the sign of circumcision. I encourage you to read v 11-13 where God defines his reasoning for the sign of circumcision. In the NT, after the cross, the seal is the person of the indwelling Holy Ghost who himself is the righteousness of God.

I would encourage you to set under a worthy God called and equipped pastor who can teach you the doctrines of the faith. It is obvious you are not ready to teach others and you can do much more harm than good. There is much at stake when teaching others the truths from this glorious book. May God be honored and glorified by what I say about his word and may Jesus Christ the Lord be lifted up for all to see. That is my prayer.
 
Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
JD731 said:
Ps 105:7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.

Neither God nor I said that circumcision is eternal nor did he say the Abrahamic covenant is made with you. The covenant is made with Abraham and confirmed to his second son Isaac and to Jacob and to Israel for an everlasting covenant. He confirmed the covenant with an oath, not with circumcision. The promise of God that he would bless all the families of the earth through his seed was not given to you or me but it was given to these fathers of Israel and our salvation does not depend on circumcision or a promise of God to us that he will provide salvation for us, which he has, but it depended upon this covenant and the oath that was attached to it. This salvation, which we learn is the Spirit, is the only part of the Abrahamic covenant that pertains to any of us gentiles today. No gentile has ever been under any law of God to be circumcised as long as the world has been created, and never will be. God made the covenant with Abraham before he was circumcised.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

I hope you can see the logic here. God is trying to use Abraham as his supreme example of the superiority of faith over law. God gave the Abrahamic covenant to him before he gave the sign of circumcision. I encourage you to read v 11-13 where God defines his reasoning for the sign of circumcision. In the NT, after the cross, the seal is the person of the indwelling Holy Ghost who himself is the righteousness of God.

I would encourage you to set under a worthy God called and equipped pastor who can teach you the doctrines of the faith. It is obvious you are not ready to teach others and you can do much more harm than good. There is much at stake when teaching others the truths from this glorious book. May God be honored and glorified by what I say about his word and may Jesus Christ the Lord be lifted up for all to see. That is my prayer.
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The sign of the covenant that you say is eternal was circumcision. Circumcision is no more. It's nothing but mutilation. Paul said, You want circumcision? Just get castrated.

The sign being no more, the covenant it signified is no more.
 
J

JD731

Well-Known Member
Aaron said:
The sign of the covenant that you say is eternal was circumcision. Circumcision is no more. It's nothing but mutilation. Paul said, You want circumcision? Just get castrated.

The sign being no more, the covenant it signified is no more.
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Unreasonable! But thanks for your thoughts.
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aaron said:
Circumcision is no more.
Click to expand...

...well, there is this, still...

Colossians Chapter 2

11​

in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
 
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