“You can’t have your cake and it too!”

[Craigbythesea]

Bartholomew wrote in the Millennial Exclusionists Sound Off thread:

quote:

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
As I have already posted, there are clear and logical reasons for a man to believe in "standard OSAS," but there are no clear or logical reasons for a man to believe in millennial exclusion.


This is your opinion. However, your opinion seems very irrational to me. If there is Biblical and logical reason to believe "standard OSAS", why is there not biblical and logical reason to belive that same doctrine but also believe in the warnigns given to us in the Bible (which is what millennial exclusionists do)? Even if you are correct in your doctrine, surely Millennial Exclusion is closer to the truth than "standard OSAS"?

To this I now reply by quoting my earlier post and adding a clarifying paragraph:

Widely held faulty conceptions of the sovereignty of God and predestination virtually force the OSAS crowd to believe in OSAS. Consequently millions of Christians believe in some form of that doctrine.

The multitude of conditional passages in both the Old and New Testaments can NOT be truly conditional if the precepts of OSAS are true. Therefore, millennial exclusionists are basing their beliefs on conditional passages which cannot be truly conditional—and that totally erodes the very foundation upon which millennial exclusionism is based. Consequently only a handful of Christians believe in millennial exclusionism. Millennial exclusionism is a self-excluding doctrine.

Further clarification: Millennial exclusionist teach that the many warning signs are proof that our entrance into the millennial kingdom is conditional upon the choices that we make rather than the choices that God has already made regarding us. That teaching contradicts the doctrines of predestination and the sovereignty of God which are the cornerstones of OSAS. As my two-year-old grandson says, “You can’t have your cake and it too!”

Additional Note: Bartholomew, I am sorry that my earlier answer to your questions offended you, but you asked me why my feelings toward the millennial exclusion doctrine is so severe, and I simply answered your question in a straight forward, honest manner without sugar coating it.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Dr Bob said:
If you teach a Satanic doctrine, it is probably safe to say that you are influenced by Satan. That is logical.

Of course, you who teach "believers-go-to-hell" will probably continue to deny it as a Satanic doctrine.

Vainly.

Borrowed Blanks bellowing scattered salvos of subjectivism.

AKA: When you (quickly) run out of objective arguments, turn red, scream loudy, throw sticks and stones in the air, scream "cult", "purgatory", and "satanic".

Way to debate, Dr Bob! You really got us there.

lacy

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

You should be aware that Dr. Bob disagree with you, that you teaching a Christian shall go to hell. Even, Dr. Bob strongly disagree on millennial exclusion, you know that.


In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[av1611jim]

CBS said;"Further clarification: Millennial exclusionist teach that the many warning signs are proof that our entrance into the millennial kingdom is conditional upon the choices that we make rather than the choices that God has already made regarding us. That teaching contradicts the doctrines of predestination and the sovereignty of God which are the cornerstones of OSAS." (bold added)

--------------------------------------------
I think you have an honest misunderstanding Craig.
We do not teach OSAS as do the Calvinists. (at least I do not)
Therefore this assumption that our doctrine naturally falls apart at this point is also inerror.
Our salvation is bought and paid for by the Blood of Christ. This is true. No one denies this.
Salvation in eternity. But Scripture also teaches about a salvation which is purely conditional and is soley offered to the Child of God. That salvation is from exclusion from the Kingdom age. It has nothing to do with your eternal destiny, but everything to do with your temporal rewards.

We have told you all this many times before, yet the nay-sayers try to paint the same inaccurate picture which you just attempted.

Nice try though.
In His service;
Jim

 

[Craigbythesea]

Dear Brother Jim,

You have radically missed my point. You do NOT believe in the teachings of Calvin that are the cornerstones of OSAS, and without those cornerstones OSAS falls just as flat as the wall around Jericho. And at the same time your doctrine is contingent upon OSAS standing firm.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Salvation in eternity. But Scripture also teaches about a salvation which is purely conditional and is soley offered to the Child of God. That salvation is from exclusion from the Kingdom age. It has nothing to do with your eternal destiny, but everything to do with your temporal rewards.

“Salvation in eternity”

????

“But Scripture also teaches about a salvation which is purely conditional and is soley offered to the Child of God.”

Salvation is NEVER offered in the Bible to the Child of God, but only to those who are NOT children of God and who are therefore in need of salvation.

“That salvation is from exclusion from the Kingdom age.”

No, Jim, it is not! So such thing is written of anywhere in the Bible.

“It has nothing to do with your eternal destiny, but everything to do with your temporal rewards.”

There is only one salvation in the Bible—salvation from the guilt and power of sin.

 

[av1611jim]

Craig;
-----------------------------------------
There is only one salvation in the Bible—salvation from the guilt and power of sin.
-----------------------------------------
I might add, the presence of sin. Otherwise what is the point?

But I digress.
Craig. I know you teach conditional salvation. You are not that far from the truth.

In His service;
Jim

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi Craig,

thanks for your reply.

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Millennial exclusionist teach that the many warning signs are proof that our entrance into the millennial kingdom is conditional upon the choices that we make rather than the choices that God has already made regarding us. That teaching contradicts the doctrines of predestination and the sovereignty of God which are the cornerstones of OSAS.

I don’t agree, but let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that you are correct. What I’m interested in is WHY you believe this makes the doctrine “Satanic”.

1. Would you call ANY illogical doctrine “Satanic”?

2. Do you believe doctrines are more “Satanic” the more illogical they are, or the further from the truth they are? Why?

3. There are many people who do not believe in “unconditional election” or in the Calvinist definition of the “sovereignty of God”, but who still hold to OSAS. Do you believe that they are holding a “Satanic” doctrine, too?

4. Do you agree that Millennial Exclusion provides a better disincentive to sin than “conventional OSAS”?

Additional Note: Bartholomew, I am sorry that my earlier answer to your questions offended you, but you asked me why my feelings toward the millennial exclusion doctrine is so severe, and I simply answered your question in a straight forward, honest manner without sugar coating it.

Don’t worry, Craig, you didn’t offend me. I simply posted the way I feel about your feelings. I think we should be very careful indeed about branding things “Satanic”, etc.

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Mat 12:36-37)

 

[Craigbythesea]

I think we should be very careful indeed about branding things “Satanic”, etc.

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Mat 12:36-37)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On these things we agree.

 

[Craigbythesea]

1. Would you call ANY illogical doctrine “Satanic”?

2. Do you believe doctrines are more “Satanic” the more illogical they are, or the further from the truth they are? Why?

3. There are many people who do not believe in “unconditional election” or in the Calvinist definition of the “sovereignty of God”, but who still hold to OSAS. Do you believe that they are holding a “Satanic” doctrine, too?

4. Do you agree that Millennial Exclusion provides a better disincentive to sin than “conventional OSAS”?

1 – 3. Where do illogical, irrational thoughts come from? I have already dealt with this matter. If these thoughts are not the RESULT of a lack of education or mental illness, WHERE do they come from if not from hell?

4. My answer to this question is found in the Gospel According to John:

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

It is the TRUTH which sets us free from sin, not doctrinal error!

 

[James_Newman]

so what is the truth?? These jews in John 8 believed on Jesus, which makes them saved in my book.

 

[Craigbythesea]

so what is the truth?? These jews in John 8 believed on Jesus, which makes them saved in my book.

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

Jesus said to those Jews who had believed the words that He spoke to them, “"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." We see here, therefore, that salvation is different than justification, and that salvation is a process whereby one becomes free from sin through a knowledge of the truth, and that all of this is CONDTIIONAL upon continuing in the words of Christ.

What is the truth? The truth is the Gospel Message.

What is the Gospel Message?

Luke 4:18. "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19. TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."

We see here that the Gospel is the proclamation that the captives shall be released and the blind shall recover their sight and the oppressed shall be set free, and the proclamation of the favorable year of the Lord.

Millennial exclusionists, therefore, do NOT understand Jesus, the Gospel Message, the truth, or the concept or reality of salvation.

 

[James_Newman]

Congratulations Craig, you have just rendered John 3:16 null and void. Or perhaps you just don't understand grace? It does not say, whosoever should pick up their cross and follw me shall not perish and have everlasting life, does it? But apparently thats what you read when you see the word believe. Now I show you here that these jews believed, why does not the bible go ahead and show us the difference between belief and belief?

This is why we 'believe' once saved always saved. There is no work required for salvation. Following Christ, as in being truly His disciple, is a work brother. It is not required for eternal salvation. Once you stop trusting in your works for salvation, Craig, you may be able to make sense out of the rest of the bible. But I think you need to start by trusting in the shed blood of our Lord to pay the price of your sins.

One scripture does not cancel out another scripture. You are going to have to figure out how to reconcile seemingly opposite doctrines. I realize you think you have done this, but really all you have done is deny the one to support the other. They are both true, Craig. There is a salvation that is by faith alone, not of works. There is a salvation that you must work out with fear and trembling. Abraham was justified by faith. Abraham was justified by works. Two salvations, two justifications.

Plain old OSAS is not the whole truth, but at least they understand the freeness of the gift of eternal life! Mind you, when I say free, I really mean you don't have to pay for it, the price was already payed. It wasn't cheap though. When you believe it, you receive it.

 

[av1611jim]

Amen Bro. James.;
You have said "a mouthful"!
And you have quite effectively "laid it on the table".
Indeed, Bro. Craig; you do effectively kill John 3:16. I might also add Rom 10:13 and Acts 16:31. Just to name a couple more.

As I said, Craig; You are nor far from the truth. It is nigh thee, even in thy mouth. There are indeed serious warnings in Scripture. You simply need to apply them to the correct folks in the correct manner.

In His service;
Jim

 

[Craigbythesea]

Two salvations, two justifications.

Two salvations, two justifications = two heresies from hell!

 

[wopik]

Craig, that southern california sun is too warm. Better do some surfin around Cardiff.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Indeed, Bro. Craig; you do effectively kill John 3:16. I might also add Rom 10:13 and Acts 16:31. Just to name a couple more.

John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (NASB, 1995)

ALL verses in the Bible MUST be read and studied in context in order for one to have a reasonable expectation of accurately understanding them. And of course every verse in the Bible must be interpreted in the light of the rest of Scripture. And some verses in the Bible provide the reader with more details than others. When we compare John 3.16 with John 3:36 we find that both believing in the Son and obeying the Son are NECESSARY FOR SALAVATION.

John 3:36. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NASB, 1995)

36. Ho pisteuon eis ton Huion echei zoen aionion. Ho de apeithon to Huio ouk opsetai zoen, all he orge tou Theou menei ep auton."

When we look at Rom. 10:13 and Acts 16:31 we read:

Rom. 10:13. for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." (NASB, 1995)

Acts 16:31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (NASB, 1995)

And when we compare this verse with John 8:31-36,

31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

we find much more information about both salvation and what it means to call on the name of the Lord. Indeed, we find that it is not a one time event that is being spoken of, but a continuous event in linear sequence.

Believing the Gospel Message (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, etc.), calling upon the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:13, etc.), obeying the commandments of Jesus (John 3:36, etc.), continuing in His word (John 8:31, etc.), knowing the truth (John 8:32), being made free from sin (John 8:32), being free, indeed, of sin (John 8:36).

Yes, there are verses that make salvation appear to some, when taken out of context, to be accomplished by the snap of the fingers, saving us only from eternity in hell, causing us to need a second salvation from a temporary stay in hell during a future millennial period. However, any rational human being can see very clearly that Jesus died on the cross for our sins only once and that there is only one salvation, the salvation that was purchased for us by that death of Jesus on the cross. The entire doctrine of millennial exclusion is not only contrary to the word of God in the Holy Scriptures, it is contrary to reason.

And to top it off, those persons who espouse such teachings claim that they came to understand and know these things through spiritual help. And since such teachings have been shown to be irrational and contrary to the divine revelation, we can only conclude that the spirits responsible for such a heresy are fallen spirits in the netherworld.

Personally, I can not see how the teaching of two salvations, two justifications, and Christians spending 1,000 years in hell is any less a false a teaching than the teachings put forward the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons.

 

[James_Newman]

A snap of the fingers? Your Lord was scourged and spit upon and nailed to a cross to pay for those sins, and you call that a snap of the fingers?

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That looks like a good one for the bible version debate, thank you Craig for pointing it out. But I don't get any of my doctrine from the NASB. You will always have to go to another version or the 'original greek' to deny free grace, brother. The KJV teaches eternal salvation by grace alone through faith, there is no obedience involved other than the command to believe.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The KJV teaches eternal salvation by grace alone through faith, there is no obedience involved other than the command to believe.

Nothing could be more irrelevant to the truth and a genuine Christian faith than the faulty and ignorant opinion of some Anglican Bishops 400 years ago!!!

What is absolute relevant to the truth and a genuine Christian faith is what the Bible says, not some 400 year old translation, but the Bible! And that is why I posted the word of God as He wrote in the language of His choice. Anyone, absolutely anyone who teaches that obedience to Christ is NOT required to salvation is GUILTY OF HIGH TREASON AGAINST THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS.

-- American Standard
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

-- Revised Standard
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

-- International English
John 3:36 The person who commits himself to the Son has eternal life, but the person who does not obey the Son will not see eternal life. Instead, God's punishment stays on that person.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
John 3: 36. Ho pisteuon eis ton Huion echei zoen aionion. Ho de apeithon to Huio ouk opsetai zoen, all he orge tou Theou menei ep auton."

-- New American Standard
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

--English Standard Version
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

-- New American
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

-- New Revised Standard
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God's wrath.

-- Darby's Bible
John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has the Life of the Ages; he who disobeys the Son will not enter into Life, but God's anger remains upon him.

-- New Living Translation
John 3:36 And all who believe in God's Son have eternal life. Those who don't obey the Son will never experience eternal life, but the wrath of God remains upon them."

-- Reina Valera Actualizada
John 3:36 El que cree en el Hijo tiene vida eterna; pero el que desobedece al Hijo no verá la vida, sino que la ira de Dios permanece sobre Él.

-- International Standard Version
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

-- Montgomery New Testament
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him."

 

[James_Newman]

What about the ignorant opinion of every other bible version that includes a like rendering of believe over your works salvation? Who is the final authority on such matters? I choose the KJV and I abide by it in all matters of doctrine, I do not get to go fishing if I don't like what it says, I just believe it. If you would like to continue the conversation, thats fine, but understand that I'm not going to accept your point of view just because someone wrote a bible that teaches it

If you can't prove it from the KJV, you can't prove it to me.