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Featured 1 John 2:1-2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Nov 14, 2022.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Yet, in your version, God fails miserably.
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I take it all the translations below are rejected by Vanology.

    He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
    - 1 John 2:2

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    - 1 John 2:2

    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    - 1 John 2:2

    He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
    - 1 John 2:2

    and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
    - 1 John 2:2
     
  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You keep saying that Austin but you fail to provide an instance of where God fails. Does He save all those that trust in His son, YES. Do you call that failure?

    If you are going to make your false claim then back it up.

    What have I said about God that is not true?

    Does God desire that all come to repentance, YES
    Does God desire that all be saved, YES
    Did God provide the means, YES
    Was Christ the atoning sacrifice of all, YES
    Can man know that He is the means of salvation, YES
    Can man respond to the gospel message in faith and be saved, YES
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    In your version, God fails miserably.
    Your post here shows us that my claim about you is accurate. Though, it is clear that you cannot comprehend how what you have said actually shows my claim about you to be true.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    In your view, either God is a monster or He fails miserably.
     
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Nope
    In my view God either chooses to extend mercy or he doesn't. He either chooses to ransom criminals who justly deserve death or he doesn't.
    He is neither a monster, nor does he fail miserably. He is a gracious God who always accomplishes exactly what he wills.

    However, you represent the persons Paul is arguing against in Romans. You have to deal with the God of the Bible.
    *Romans 9:14-33*
    What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Either God provides a genuine offer of salvation to those who reject it or God is a monster.
     
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    False assertion.

    God uses his children to proclaim the general call so that rebels know why they are condemned and the elect hear the call of God to be changed from death to life.

    God only saves those He graciously chose to ransom. He saves no one else and he is no monster for choosing whom he wills. You are the person Paul is arguing against in his letter to the Romans.

    *Romans 9:14-33*
    What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You continue to deny scripture and keep calling the word of God failed. The version of salvation that you deny is just what the bible says is true. Do think I should trust your view or the bible?

    What have I said about God that is not true?

    Does God desire that all come to repentance, YES 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:32, Luke 5:32, Acts of the Apostles 3:19

    Does God desire that all be saved, YES 1 Timothy 2:3-4, John 3:16-17; John 12:32, Titus 2:11

    Did God provide the means, YES John 1:29, Romans 3:25, 1 Peter 1:18-19,

    Was Christ the atoning sacrifice of all, YES 1 Timothy 2:5-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, John 3:17, Romans 5:18, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 1 John 2:2

    Can man know that He (Christ) is the means of salvation, YES Romans 1:16, Romans _10:17, 1 Corinthians 1:18-21, 1 John 5:10-13

    Can man respond to the gospel message in faith and be saved, YES Mark 16:15-16, Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31,Acts of the Apostles 13:38-39, John 1:12-13, Ephesians 1:13-14
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You do not understand what you think you do. Mark 16:15, ". . . And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. . . ." Colossians 1:23, ". . . If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . ."
     
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Here is you read into the text of the bible what you need to find.
     
  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What do I read into the text?
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sliverhair, you are an open universalist who will deny it when push comes to shove.
    Our understanding of the word "all" is different. You embrace universalism. I do not.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Do you preach the gospel to ants and birds, 37? The text says "every creature."
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Intellectually dishonest.
    1 Timothy 2:3-6, ". . . For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, . . ."
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Your calvinist theology. You come to the scripture with a preconceived notion of what you need to find rather that trust what the bible says. You are believing calvinism more than the bible.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Is that what you believe Paul did? ". . . which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; . . ." Colossians 1:23.
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The key here is the word "all." I understand it to mean people from all nations, tribes, and tongues. Thus God does exactly what God claims.
    You understand the word "all" to be universal, which means God fails to accomplish what He claims since not all believe.

    God's word is wonderful. But, whose interpretation is correct? I will hold the interpretation that doesn't require massive contradictions.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You read that into the text.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What does the text of your quoted verses say? Note that you must interpret the meaning.

    I already told you that we fulfill the commandment of God and God chooses whom He will save. I will keep quoting the same scripture until you acknowledge it. So far, you and Sliverhair have ignored it completely.
    *Romans 9:14-33*
    What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
     
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