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Featured 1 John 2:1-2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Nov 14, 2022.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe this refers to all human sin, or (to borrow from John Calvin) "all men indiscriminately". Christ being the Propitiation for all sins is not a problem for historic Calvinism (although I believe both historic and neo Calvinism to be incorrect). As many Greek scholars have pointed out, the subject of the passage is Christ and not man's sins.

    Making it appear that this would be a double payment is, obviously, a fallacy because it assumes Calvinism is correct (it is from a distinctively Calvinistic point of view).
     
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  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    As I said Austin your reading skills are really lacking. Can you not be honest about anything? I have yet to have to be honest on any response to me. Did you miss that part where I quoted you. Here are your words Austin "God never fails to accomplish all He desires." And then you claim I said that, How is anyone to trust anything that you say. I do not think you understand what honest means. The disrespect that you show for the word of God is astounding. How can you look at yourself in the mirror and call your self a Christian.

    Austin your a universalist just by your own words. Your version of a sovereign God controls all things and then you tell us that He never fails to accomplish ALL He desires and since He desires that all men be saved and your version of God never fails then all will be saved according to you. But the bible does not agree with you on that but you never did strike me as the type to really trust what the bible says.

    But God will accomplish all that He desires and He desires to save all those that freely trust in His son Christ Jesus. The fact you do not believe what the bible says is well documented on this form from what you write.

    Austin since you can not be honest in what you post I have decided to put you on ignore.
     
    #162 Silverhair, Nov 23, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
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  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, now if we could just people to read the text that is there and not what they want to see.
     
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  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    And you state "God never fails to accomplish all He desires."

    Therefore, one would conclude, by your definition, that all humans will be saved.

    Notice that there is no "but" in those verses in 1 Timothy 2:3-4. Yet, in your interpretation you added "but" to your claim and deny that all are saved.

    Sliverhair, you claim universalism and then deny it. You walk in contradiction and try to resolve it by saying all with a but. God desires all (universally) to be saved, but humans deny God His desire. Then you turn around and tell us that God always gets what he desires.

    All your contradictions and you still are too proud to admit you are wrong.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The word "desires" in verse 4 is not being used in the same sense.
     
  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Way to cryptic a comment.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    He can't desire it very much, since according to you He doesn't love anyone enough to save them..
     
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  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That word used in 1 Timothy 2:4 is variously translated has a meaning "I wish" and is used some 200 times throughout the New Testament. θελω thelo
     
    #168 37818, Nov 24, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2022
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Martin God desires that all come to repentance thus He shows His love for all people. But He also allows those same people to make real free will choices as to whether they will accept or reject Him as Lord which also shows His love for all people.

    Your version of God does not love all people as He gladly sends most to an eternity in hell just because He can and yet the bible tells us that God is love and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. Do you not find it strange that God would expect more of us than He expects from Himself?

    You are trusting more in your calvinist philosophy than you are in the bible.
     
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  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Are you basing your comments on what I said or what Austin said I said. Read the posts again I think your comments should be directed at him not me.

    37 I know how the word desire can be used and and is used in 1Ti 2:4 and I have been pointing that out to Martin and Austin all through this thread and they have been disagreeing and made it mean "must happen" which is not biblical.

    To be clear: God desires all to be saved, He would like to see all saved, but all are not saved as He allows man to make the choice as to whether they will accept or reject Christ as Lord. Hope that clears up the confusion.
     
    #170 Silverhair, Nov 24, 2022
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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Originally on what Austin said. Post #165
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I have put Austin on ignore so you are what I see as post #165. Go back in the thread and you will see that Austin makes statements which I quote in my response to him and then he accuses me of making that statement. To be blunt he lies in his posts. If that is how he thinks Christians are to act then he does not understand Christianity.
     
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  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Understandable. I have had him on ignore in the past. In his thinking he is correct, some of his remarks are sometimes too caustic to actually be helping to change anyone's mind. IMO
     
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  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    My task is not to woo you over. My task is to rightly divide the Word of God. There is no sense in placating false teaching.
     
  15. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I have him on ignore as well. Always a toxic attitude.
     
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    May I be the first to say thank you for making this such a "Happy Thanksgiving!"

    The brothers from another mother have me in ignore! Praise God from whom all blessings flow!!! :Whistling:Thumbsup:Cool
     
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I found this argument online and although I do not agree with his theological view [Molinism] I do think he presents a well though out argument against Calvinism.

    The Calvinistic teachings are not only logically incoherent, but unbiblical as well! This is primarily due to the “I” in TULIP and the belief that humans are not genuinely responsible for our thoughts, beliefs, and actions. A consistent Calvinist denies that humanity possesses libertarian free will to choose or do anything and that includes the freedom to resist the grace of God. Calvinists typically affirm that God creates all humanity with a spiritually dead nature [we are logically not responsible for this] and only God can change our nature to be spiritually alive [we are logically not responsible for this either].

    Omni Argument Against Calvinism
    1. If 5-point Calvinism (and “Irresistible Grace”) is true, then for any person X, if God desires to, has the power to, and knows how to cause X to go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell, then X will go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell.

    2. If God is omnibenevolent {All-loving, or infinitely good}, omnipotent {is all-powerful}, and omniscient {seeing all or knowing all}, then for any person X, God desires to, has the power to, and knows how to cause X to go to Heaven and not suffer eternally in Hell.

    3. There is at least one person who will not go to Heaven and suffer eternally in Hell.

    4. Therefore, one cannot affirm both {1} that 5-point Calvinism is true and {2} that God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient.

    If one is committed to reject the logical conclusion, they must demonstrate which premise is false to show the argument is unsound.
    So, if the committed Calvinist affirms eternal Hell does exist (as most do), since the structure is valid and the conclusion follows, they must either deny one of God’s omni attributes, or argue that one of his omni attributes does not imply what it implies. The premise typically attacked by those committed to their Calvinistic presuppositions is (2). Thus it would seem that committed Calvinists would rather deny the perfect goodness and the maximal love of God instead of dropping their Calvinistic philosophy.
    But it is intuitively obvious (a properly basic belief) and we simply know that good judges do not give death sentences to people as a punishment for crimes these individuals are not responsible for.

    Paul affirms premise {2 above} in 1Ti_2:4 “[God] desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
    Therefore, if one affirms that God possesses His omni attributes maximally, and that 1Ti_2:4 is true, and that some people do suffer eternal Hell, then it logically follows that they must reject 5-point Calvinism.

    That is to say, if God is a Maximally Great Being and eternal hell is a reality, then Calvinism is necessarily false. To affirm all of these things simultaneously is logically incoherent. If we care about TRUTH, and if we claim that Christianity is TRUE, then we must avoid logical incoherence like the plague as affirming that Christianity is logically incoherent is the same as stating, “Christianity is NOT true!”

    1- If Calvinism is true, whomever God provides “irresistible grace” to will go to Heaven and not suffer eternal Hell.

    2- If God is omnibenevolent, He would not desire to, nor would He, send anyone to suffer eternal Hell for choices they were powerless to make without God’s irresistible grace.

    3- If God is omnipotent, he could provide irresistible grace to all people.

    4- If God is omniscient, he would know how to provide irresistible grace to all people.

    5- Some people suffer eternal Hell.

    6- Therefore, either God is not omnibenevolent, or not omnipotent, or not omniscient (pick at least one), or irresistible grace (and Calvinism) is false.

    The Petals Drop: Why Calvinism is Impossible | Free Thinking Ministries
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is how you see your self doing it.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    His arguments are sound and logical. When I have looked at their DoG or WCF or LBCF that has been the logical end point of calvinism. If they could show where that logic is wrong then they have yet to do it. All I get from most calvinists is that I do not understand that view.
    The bible is clear God desires all to be saved but not all are and that leaves only two options, either God really does not want to save all and actually sends most to hell or God actually wants to save all and while many do freely trust in Christ most via that same free will do reject Christ Jesus as Lord.

    Do you have a counter argument to his conclusion?
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. But that there is not only one reason individuals fail to trust in Christ.
     
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