1 Thess 5:22

jw · Jan 27, 2006

KJV: Abstain from all appearance of evil.
NASB: abstain from every form of evil.
NIV: Avoid every kind of evil.

Is it form, appearance, or kind - and why do you hold that position?

Brother James · Jan 27, 2006

I'd check the text they were translated from. The NASB is from the critical text and the KJV from the TR. I try to abstain from all appearance but either statement holds true.

jw · Jan 27, 2006

Both the TR and CT use eidous.

BDAG has all three definitions listed, they seem to favor "kind" for this verse (sorry the Greek fonts won't copy/paste here):

[BDAG] ei=doj
• ei=doj, ouj, to, (Hom.+.—CRitter, Neue Unters. über Plato 1910, 228-320)

1. the shape and structure of someth. as it appears to someone, form, outward appearance (X., Cyr. 1, 2, 1; Pla., Symp. 210b; Philostrat., Ep. 51; Gen 41:2-4; Ezk 1:26; Philo; Jos., Ant. 6, 296; TestSim 5:1; Mel., P. 47, 334 [Perler]) swmatikw/| ei;dei in bodily form Lk 3:22; cp. GEb 18, 36 (Just., D. 88, 4 evn ei;dei peristera/j and oft.). to. ei=doj tou/ prosw,pou auvtou/ the appearance of his face Lk 9:29 (ApcEsdr 4:29 p. 29, 3 Tdf.). Of God (cp. Ex 24:17; Theoph. Ant. 1, 3 [p. 62, 8]) ei=doj auvtou/ (w. fwnh,) J 5:37. Of the form of polytheists’ gods Dg 2:1. ouvk e;cein ei=doj have no comeliness 1 Cl 16:3 (Is 53:2). to. pu/r kama,raj ei=doj poih/san formed the shape of a vaulted room MPol 15:2.

2. a variety of someth., kind (X., Pla. et al.; PTebt 58, 20f [111 BC]; PFay 34, 6; POxy 905, 6; Sir 23:16; 25:2; Philo; Jos., Ant. 10, 37 pa/n ei=doj ponhri,aj; Just., Tat., Ath. [here the ‘form’ of matter]) avpo. panto.j ei;douj ponhrou/ fr. every kind of evil 1 Th 5:22 (Unknown Sayings, p. 92 [money-changing?])

3. the act of looking/seeing, seeing, sight (Num 12:8; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 17, 18 sto,ma kata. sto,ma, evn ei;dei kai. ouv diV o`rama,twn kai. evnupni,wn. So also the interpr. of 2 Cor 5:7 in Severian of Gabala [Pauluskomm. aus d. griech. Kirche ed. KStaab ’33, 291] and in Theodoret III 314 Noesselt) dia. pi,stewj, ouv dia. ei;douj by faith, not by sight 2 Cor 5:7 (the same contrast betw. pisteu,ein and ivdei/n [s. ei=don 1a] also J 20:29).—PBrommer, EIDOS et IDEA ’40. DELG and Frisk. B. 874. EDNT. M-M. TW.

Brother James · Jan 27, 2006

From what I read appearance would be best but form would not be in error.

Brother James · Jan 27, 2006

22 Abstain from every form of evil.
NKJV

jw · Jan 27, 2006

Why do you hold to "appearance"?

Brother James · Jan 27, 2006

I didn't say I was infallable brother. lol.
I just said appearance seems to be best to me, but upon further reflection I may change my mind.

jw · Jan 27, 2006

Hehe, didn't mean it to sound like that Was just wondering your reasoning.

I'm undecided myself. Started the thread hoping to get some different viewpoints and reasonings

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Jan 27, 2006

After seeing this debate many, many times I think there is a sense in which "form" and "appearance" are synonymous. The same word is translated "shape", "fashion", and even "sight" in the KJV.

Probably for today every "form" of evil is a clearer choice because we tend to think of "appearance" as something that gives an impression, true of false, but it can also mean something's form or shape.

Saying that, I think both words are valid translations.

Brother James · Jan 27, 2006

Originally posted by C4K:
After seeing this debate many, many times I think there is a sense in which "form" and "appearance" are synonymous. The same word is translated "shape", "fashion", and even "sight" in the KJV.

Probably for today every "form" of evil is a clearer choice because we tend to think of "appearance" as something that gives an impression, true of false, but it can also mean something's form or shape.

Saying that, I think both words are valid translations.
Click to expand...

jw · Jan 27, 2006

BDAG has definitions using "form" as in the appearance or way something looks and "form" as in "the ‘form’ of matter" or the way something actually is (or "kind").

The KJV and NIV make definate interpretational calls (KJV saying it means the way something looks, the NIV saying it is the way something actually is), and the NASB seems to leave it open to interpretation.

How do you know which is right here?

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Jan 27, 2006

I would have to know more about what the average reader would have thought when he read the word in 1611. The words are very similar, even in our modern English mind. It would not have taken much difference in English for the word "appearance" to have meant the way something actually is in 1611 and the way it looks in 2006.

We still use the old meaning. For example, I might say, "I was excited at the appearance of my wife in the room." It sounds a bit archaic to our ear, but is a perfectly understandable sentence.

Neither word is wrong, IMHO. As I mention above "form" is probably the better choice for us today however.

Brother James · Jan 27, 2006

I'd say follow both and you can't go wrong!

jw · Jan 27, 2006

Ah, I see. Misunderstood what you said.

Found this by Michael Holmes, thought it was interesting.

...Once a prophecy has been “tested,” the next step is clear: Hold on firmly to those that are good, and have nothing to do with those that are not (5:21b – 22). Prophecies that pass the test are from the Holy Spirit and therefore ought not to be rejected or treated with contempt. On the other hand, any prophecy that fails the testing process is not from the Spirit and should therefore be rejected and avoided (the verb here, apecho, is the same as in 4:3, “avoid sexual immorality”).

The structure of the passage clearly links 5:21b – 22 closely with 5:21a. But the wording of these last two commands goes beyond the needs of the immediate context: verse 21b (“Hold on to the good”) echoes 5:15b (“always seek to do good,” NRSV), and verse 22 is probably best taken as “every kind of evil” (rather than “every kind [of prophecy that is] evil”). This may be a clue that Paul intended verses 21b – 22 not only as an explication of verse 21a but also as a statement of broader application.
Click to expand...

(NIV Application Commentary on 1 & 2 Thessalonians)

Brother James · Jan 27, 2006

Greens literal translation fro the TR says,
"keep back from every form of evil".

jw · Jan 27, 2006

One more...

On the other hand counterfeit teaching and living should be rejected and avoided. Not only should pseudoprophecies be discarded but also, as Paul broadened his warning, every kind and form of evil should be avoided. What may only appear to be bad also falls under this warning. However, “while believers should abstain from actions which will knowingly offend others, it is not always possible to abstain from everything which may appear evil to a narrow and foolish judgment” (Hiebert, The Thessalonian Epistles, p. 249).

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. 1983-c1985. The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures. Victor Books: Wheaton, IL
Click to expand...

Taking it to mean form/kind (or taking "appearance" to mean form as in the actual) means the old application that you hear at least twice a day from the typical fundy, "Don't do anything that even looks like it might be wrong" (i.e. don't listen to CCM, drink, play cards, "look like the world" (whatever that means), etc, etc...) is flat out wrong.

jw · Jan 27, 2006

Err.. ok, one more, meant to put this one up last time.

22. Tittmann supports English Version, “from every evil appearance” or “semblance.” The context, however, does not refer to evil appearances in ourselves which we ought to abstain from, but to holding ourselves aloof from every evil appearance in others; as for instance, in the pretenders to spirit-inspired prophesyings. In many cases the Christian should not abstain from what has the semblance (“appearance”) of evil, though really good. Jesus healed on the sabbath, and ate with publicans and sinners, acts which wore the appearance of evil, but which were not to be abstained from on that account, being really good. I agree with Tittmann rather than with Bengel, whom Alford follows. The context favors this sense: However specious be the form or outward appearance of such would-be prophets and their prophesyings, hold yourselves aloof from every such form when it is evil, literally, “Hold yourselves aloof from every evil appearance” or “form.”
Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. 1997. A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments. On spine: Critical and explanatory commentary. Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA
Click to expand...

TCassidy · Jan 27, 2006

The verse means to avoid evil every time it appears, not to avoid doing that which somebody might think looks as if it might be evil.

NaasPreacher (C4K) · Jan 27, 2006

I hadn't considered this aspect as a possible interpretation:

...that which somebody might think looks as if it might be evil.
Click to expand...

Thanks Doc, now the question makes more sense.

I had only considered

to avoid evil every time it appears
Click to expand...

as the meaning.

jw · Jan 27, 2006

I hadn't considered this aspect as a possible interpretation:
Click to expand...

Heh, you obviously don't live in the South

That's what I have always heard it as until just this week. Then I looked it up and found that I might not be so.

The verse means to avoid evil every time it appears, not to avoid doing that which somebody might think looks as if it might be evil.
Click to expand...

Meaning avoid others who are performing the evil action, or fleeing from evil actions as they present themselves in our own life (or both)?

1 Thess 5:22

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

jw New Member

TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator

NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

jw New Member

Useful Searches

1 Thess 5:22

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

Brother James New Member

jw New Member

jw New Member

TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus Administrator

NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

jw New Member

TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator