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1 Tim 3:3 Corrupted in the modern versions?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by evangelist6589, Sep 29, 2017.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    KJV- Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

    NIV- Not given to drunkenness....
    ESV- Not a drunkard....

    Then this guy on FB says this.

    ESV/NIV, as all modern translations, are based on what is known as the "Westcort/Hort" revised text, based primarily on the "Aleph" MMS, which is the oldest and worst MS. It was found in a trash can, being used to start fires! Suggest you read Dean Burgon's arguments against W/H and the "Aleph" text/MS. W/H were Satanists! I never use/consult or read any of the modern version based on W/H, except to show where they are wrong. After working with W/H on the Revision Committee, Dean Burgon resigned because he saw what they were doing to the Bible.

    Is this accurate? Basically he is saying you cant trust the NIV/ESV. I do not believe him as these are my 2 best translations. Or is this guy a type of KJVO?
     
  2. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    So much wrong with what he has said. They were not Satanist. This lie was started by Gail Riplinger when she confused two different Westcott. The Bishop(Brooke Foss Westcott) who worked on the Greek text named after him and William Wynn Westcott, who was heavy in the occult.

    Also the ESV and NIV are not based on the Westcott and Hort text. The NA27 is not the same thing and the WH text. The very first NA text used the WH text, but also looked at other Greek texts. Whoever wrote that is conflating people and Greek texts. They are either unaware of the differences, or being completely unfair and dishonest, like Riplinger.

    Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
     
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    The Greek word is πάροινος (paroinos). It is a construct (two words stuck together to form one new word) of πάρα (beside) and oινος (wine). It means "to stand beside the wine" indicating being too long at or by the wine.

    The KJV is more literal (at least as far as the "wine" part is concerned) but the NIV ESV are the dynamic equivalence, bringing the meaning, if not the actual words, into English.

    Untrue. Most modern translations are based on the Nestle-Aland texts. The most recent edition being the 28th iteration if I remember correctly. NA and WH are both representatives of the Alexandrian textform.
    The Alexandrian textform is primarily represented by Aleph and B.
    Oldest, no. It may be the oldest nearly complete text of both Testaments but there are manuscripts which are older. And "worst" - like best - is a subjective assessment and is therefore in the eye of the beholder.
    False. Some old scraps were seen in a trash can being used to start the fire in the fireplace but when it was noticed they were leaves with writing on them Count Constantine Tischendorf asked if there were others and he was taken to the library and shown a near complete manuscript of the bible, wrapped in red leather, and guarded and handled very carefully. The monks understood the value of the manuscript.
    John Burgon was no great fan of Aleph or B and his writings are very informative if a bit over the top with invective.
    That is simply a radical KJVO lie.
    And I wonder how he would know what was wrong as I would be willing to wager, were I a wagering man, that he can't read a word of Greek.
    As far as I know John Burgon was never on the RV revision committee.

    New Testament Company.

    The Right Rev. Charles John Ellicott, D. D., Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol (Chairman), Palace, Gloucester.
    The Right Rev. George Moberly, D. C. L., Bishop of Salisbury, Palace, Salisbury.
    The Very Rev. Edward Henry Bickersteth, D. D., Prolocutor, Dean of Lichfield, Deanery, Lichfield.
    The Very Rev. Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, D. D., Dean of Westminster, Deanery, Westminster.
    The Very Rev. Robert Scott, D. D., Dean of Rochester, Deanery, Rochester.
    The Very Rev. Joseph Williams Blakesley, B. D., Dean of Lincoln, Deanery, Lincoln.
    The Most Rev. Richard Chenevix Trench, D. D., Archbishop of Dublin, Palace, Dublin.
    The Right Rev. Joseph Lightfoot, D. D., LL.D., Bishop of Durham.
    The Right Rev. Charles Wordsworth, D. C. L., Bishop of St. Andrew's, Bishopshall, St. Andrew's.
    The Rev. Joseph Angus, D. D., President of the Baptist College, Regent's Park, London.
    The Rev. David Brown, D. D., Principal of the Free Church College, Aberdeen.
    The Rev. Fenton John Anthony Hort, D. D., Fellow of Emmanual College, Cambridge.
    The Rev. William Gilson Humphry, Vicarage, St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, London, W. C.
    The Rev. Benjamin Hall Kennedy, D. D., Canon of Ely and Regius Professor of Greek, The Elms, Cambridge.
    The Ven. William Lee, D. D., Archdeacon of Dublin, Dublin.
    The Rev. William Milligan, D. D., Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism, Aberdeen.
    The Rev. William F. Moulton, D. D., Master of the Leys School, Cambridge.
    The Rev. Samuel Newth, D. D., Principal of New College, Hampstead, London.
    The Ven. Edwin Palmer, D. D., Archdeacon of Oxford, Christ Church, Oxford.
    The Rev. Alexander Roberts, D. D., Professor of Humanity, St. Andrew's.
    The Rev. Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener, LL.D., Prebendary, Hendon Vicarage, London, N. W.
    The Rev. George Vance. Smith, D. D., Parade, Carmarthen.
    The Rev. Charles John Vaughan, D. D., Master of the Temple, The Temple, London, E. C.
    The Rev. Brooke Foss Westcott, D. D., Canon of Peterborough and Regius Professor of Divinity, Trinity College, Cambridge.
    The Rev. J. Troutbeck (Secretary), Dean's Yard, Westminster.

    The English New Testament Company has lost, by death, the Right Rev. Dr. Samuel Wilberforce, Bishop of Winchester; the Very Rev. Dr. Henry Alford, Dean of Canterbury; the Rev. Dr. John Eadie, Professor of Biblical Literature in the United Presbyterian Church, Glasgow; and Mr. Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, LL. D.; and they lost, by resignation, the Rev. Dr. Charles Merivale, Dean of Ely.

    Only slightly. Mostly nonsense.
    What do you base that assessment on?
    The worst type. The type that knows absolutely nothing and just copies and pastes from websites put up by other people who know absolutely nothing about texts or translation.
     
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  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    The addition found in the textus receptus has nothing to do with what you have bolded
    The TR has the additional phrase μη αισχροκερδη, "not greedy of filthy lucre".

    1 Timothy 3:3

    μὴ πάροινον μὴ πλήκτην, ἀλλʼ ἐπιεικῆ ἄμαχον ἀφιλάργυρον, (NA28)

    μη παροινον μη πληκτην αλλα επιεικη αμαχον αφιλαργυρον (Westcott Hort 1881)

    not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. (NIV)

    not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. (ESV)


    μη παροινον μη πληκτην μη αισχροκερδη αλλ επιεικη αμαχον αφιλαργυρον (textus receptus 1550MR)

    not given to wine
    , no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (AV1873)

    Bruce Metzger writes:
    After πλήκτην the Textus Receptus, as well as many minuscules, inserts μὴ αἰσχροκερδῆ. The words are a gloss derived from Tt 1:7 and are not present in א A D F G K L P 5 33 38 104 181 218 263 323 424c 436 442 460 462 618 623 635 920 1149 1738 1827 1837 1838 1906* 1944 2004 2125 itd, vg syrp, copsa, goth arm eth al.
    United Bible Societies, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.) (London; New York: United Bible Societies, 1994), 573.
    Rob

     
  5. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    It's utter KJVO nonsense.

    Westcott and Hort Resource Centre - FAQs

    You can see for yourself how they have quote mined and downright lied about them.
     
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  6. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Good to know. KJVO radical can be quite the liars sometimes.
     
  7. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    This KJVO radical was trying to make a point that the Bible and 1 Tim 3:3 forbids that all ministers drink alcohol. Of coarse the text does not teach this as you can see by reading the ESV/NIV.
     
  8. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    So let me guess - you mentioned you were a street evangelist who occasionally has a Mike's Hard Lemonade, and this guy went to town on you for drinking.

    He may be wrong, but you're still looking for justification and validation.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The orthodox Baptist view is that a fraction of the populous is predisposed to substance abuse, and within that fraction are those inclined to alcoholism. So in light of not causing a brother to stumble we avoid alcohol so as to avoid leading someone astray.

    1 Timothy 3:3 "not given to wine" is a sound accurate translation, the NASB has not addicted to wine. The word appears to carry more meaning than just spending time with wine, but also includes the idea that the behavior has deleterious effects upon the person.

    .
     
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  10. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    "Orthodox" view. Common, perhaps, but not "orthodox," which would mean other views are heretical.
     
    #10 rsr, Sep 30, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This had to come from a KJVO site, the part of them Critical Greek text used by modern versions is totally corrupted/satanic!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They just have misguided zeal, as they are so wrong on their views regarding the Kjv, but should be using their efforts to stress that scriptures themselves are what is all important, not just if their version or not!
     
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  13. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Orthodox Baptist? I am Baptist and attend a church that does not teach teetotalism.
     
  14. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Wrong. No mention of my street Evangelism.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    #15 Van, Sep 30, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
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  16. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    A Southern Baptist Convention resolution does not establish "orthodoxy." Besides, that resolution does not reflect the position you offered. The resolution says nothing about causing someone to stumble; it's a pure "drinking is a sin" resolution. Pretty much the position of the churches I grew up in back in the day. (A grievous sin, on a par with dancing and wearing blue jeans to Sunday services.)
     
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  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I have been attending Baptist Churches for close to 60 years. So I probably have celebrated communion hundreds of times. All of them served grape juice, not wine.

    I presented the orthodox view, presented in most of the churches where I regularly attended. The link to the SBC was simply to show one of many "avoid alcohol viewpoints held within the Baptist ranks. Note that no pro-alcohol link has been posted.

     
    #17 Van, Oct 1, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
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  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Isn't it the point of translations to bring the meaning of the original to the target audience? The "actual words" can't be put in an English translation.
    There are indeed manuscripts which are older than B and Aleph, but since these two are nearly complete New Testaments --Aleph having more content than B, they deserve much more attention and credit.

    According to your man Robinson, the current NA edition is 99.5% the same as W&H's edition.
    I'd say this man was a true Evangelical
    Bickersteth was a solid Evangelical. He supported the Society For The Propagation Of The Gospel. He also traveled to Japan several times to spread the Word. His son was a missionary there.

    As far as I know he died the latest into the 20th century --1906. And he had the most children --16, from one wife!
    Dean Stanley.
    A solid biblical scholar.
    The only Baptist in the company. He was a good conservative. He even ministered at New Park Street Chapel. Does that ring a bell? C.H.S. did later on.

    At one point Charles Spurgeon was contemplating going to what we would call seminary. He had arranged to have an appointment with Dr. Angus. However there was a mix-up. After waiting a considerable time Spurgeon walked out. Dr. Angus was in the house, but wasn't informed.
    I found that he had gathered just 64 Greek readings of the N.T. text after the ERV was released.
    Roberts was a Presbyterian. He was the father of 14 children.
    I have a great deal of respect for him --much more than I have for Dean Burgon. Scrivener was a scholar's scholar.
    Alford was a very learned man. In 1868 he had published the New Testament for English Readers In Four Volumes.
    Yes, another Presbyterian.
    I respect Tregelles very much. He came from my background --the Plymouth Brethren. He was an industrious scholar while not having the luxury of his N.T. peers. Tregelles labored as an ironworker. for six while doing textual criticism in his spare time. He also composed a number of "Hymns for the poor of the flock."

    There was one Methodist in the group, but I lost track of his name.
     
    #18 Rippon, Oct 1, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think that the majority viewpoint would be no alcohol allowed, but mine is can, but in moderation, and better if decided not to have any!
     
  20. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    You mentioned a specific rationale for opposition to alcohol. Where in the resolution do you find this rationale? Nowhere. Check any of the other 60 or so resolutions; it's not there.

    The Southern Baptist Convention has been "officially" Prohibitionist since the late 1800s, always based on its effect on society. Before that it was not.
     
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