1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?

Of course, Ray, you forget to mention that the elect "few" are, in fact, the elect "many," who are a people that "no man can number," because there are so many of them.

Of course this is a misrepresentation. We only believe man can not come to Jesus apart from being drawn by God. NO CALVINIST believes the will has been destroyed. As usual, you misstate what we believe.

You quote Calvinists all the time, but you seem to have missed the Opinions of the Remonstrants themselves which clearly say this:

Not even the original Arminians believe what you guys believe about the will of man.

 

There is no contradiction there. Romans 1:20 speaks to common grace extended to all persons. By this they do know that God exists. This is not spiritual understanding. If it was, then all unsaved people would be atheists.

Now there IS a contradiction, because if Christ draws all men to himself the way you say then that leads directly to universalism because in John 6:45 Jesus says that everybody that is instructed by the Father will be raised on the last day. They are clearly the ones that are drawn in the preceding verse. If all men are in view the way you say they are and they are drawn the way you say they are, then you end up at universalism.

No, those that are drawn are drawn effectively.

 

These twelve who we now know as the Apostles were ELECT from the foundation of the world, they had always been part of God's redemption plan for man. The rest of those given during Jesus' physical presence were given as the result of their belief in Jesus.

 

No, those that are drawn are drawn effectively.</font>[/QUOTE]YOU HOPE!

 

Gene...

It's o.k. ... We are all born Arminians, then God gives us grace and we become Calvinist...
C.H.S.

 

If you are saying we are just as bad as you then I would not complain.
If someone says they chose to go to God when the scriptures all say different then you are selfrighteous. That, if you know the scriptures, is arrogance. You throw God's word back in His face. You say you know better than Him. Has He not the right to make some for Hell and some for Heaven? Simple isn't it? We get it in the neck for quoting scripture. Has anyone sought after God? The answer comes back loud and clear from you lot, yes is the answer. Arrogance and blindness. You sit in the dark and you are telling us?

Free will is negated in the presence of coercion. Vote for me or go to Hell.
That's a simple statement. If there has been a reply to this I cannot remember it. Remind me, is free will not negated by coercion?

Not 'go' really, sent, sent to Hell would be scriptural, they would rather be in Hell, by a God that allowed them their way. Still they were not intimidated by the coercion! I wonder why. Common sense should prevail. Looking after number one is usually number one to us. But God did say the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so, Rom 8:7, didn't He?

So I would concur with you Wes, "The acceptance of the Gospel is likewise simple... ." Only you make it difficult. When He says that He will have mercy on who He wants and compassion on whoever He wants we are meant to believe it. We are meant to believe it because He wants His children to know that about Him. That we are important to Him. Not lost in a crowd. We are important enough to go to Hell for. When He says that those He chooses, to share His life with, those He will save, He means it. If that means He tells the others to go to Hell what is that to you? Do you dare say that is unfair? Do you dare talk back to Him?

He did not.

He saved me. But if He came to save His people, and you say all are His people, then you say He failed. He did not save anyone you said!
Is that not so?

John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

No intercession for those considered the world.
If He don't pray for them He certainly didn't die for them did He?
No you say, He died to pay the debt of sin, not for anyone in particular! Yet He told me that He loved me and gave Himself for me. I don't know why He has not told you the same thing.

John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

There is intercession for some. A limited intercession. JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. That is the world you say He died for. That is the world He says He does not pray for. So He will do His best for us but not the least? All that the Father draws to Christ will not be prayed for by Jesus because they are the world and He does not pray for the world does He?

Why do you persist in this nonsense of 'He elects those who chose Him?' That is not the meaning of election and if it was then it would be a work because one must make oneself electable! And you say the scriptures should be taken simply? Being elected means being chosen. Did you make yourself chosenable?
You change the meaning of words to fit into your deathtrap and then you go see who you can trap. That is not fishing.

John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Jesus said, "I pray for them, for them, those you has given Me. For those you haven't given me I do not pray for." They don't stand a chance. They haven't a prayer!
The lost sheep He claims as His. He came to seek the lost sheep. You say He failed. I say He found the lost sheep. He succeeded. He is The Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He does not say that He lay down His life for the pigs, the dogs or the goats. You can't think that The Good Shepherd would lose a sheep, how can you think that? Don't you know Him? What happens then, does a goat turn into a sheep and if He does not believe anymore he turns back into a goat?HaHa! There, I thought He made them after their own kind.
Those He predestined He saves. Predestined means that He destined 'those' for glory 'before'. That is the only meaning of the word 'pre'. Before what? Before everything. It does not mean He skipped along to the end to see what we got up to! What a miserable thing to think. He knows the end from the beginning, or is that too simple. It is He that directs all things. And that 'all things' is all things because my God is Sovereign. Chosen by Him for Him, not for me or anything I do, but because He so decided. His I am. His Israel.
Chosen, elected, predestined, redeemed, saved, foreknown, loved, atoned for, ransom paid in full. Go and learn what these words mean. Then tell us what they mean not what you want them to mean. Simple.
What did you say predestined meant, that He chose to save those that chose to save themselves?

The Song of Songs is about the Lord God Almighty and His Church.
He hates divorce. Divorce is failed, because love was not present. He loves me with an everlasting love. Love never fails. Do you claim He loves you because you love Him O great and mighty ones? The only reason He loves you is because you first loved Him? You turn the scriptures upside down. That He will not love you if you don't love Him? That is not love. Love never fails praise Him!

Here, take a look at our arrogance. The sheer pride in us.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 6 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Why? Eze 36:32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

That's our arrogance. Your arrogance stands head and shoulders above ours. You trust in your own strength, O worthy ones.
Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel! That is the Church my Father is addressing.

Ray.

Many are called but few are chosen.
That is simple English Ray what's the problem? Anyone would think you have an interest in God's enemies.

Many are called but few are chosen.
How do you make this mean all are called and none are chosen?

What's the problem with Augustine. If he thought as Calvin or Calvin thought as him so what? A mention was made earlier about the connection he had with the RCC. If he had been alive a little later he would have been burnt as millions of our brothers and sisters were. You believe the same as those that burnt the saints. That man was not destroyed in the fall. That there is goodness in him. But the scripture is clear that none seek God.

(Wes)
Some are elect are they? Well it looks like you are a Calvinist, been convinced have you? What of their free will? There are now, according to you, a chosen elect.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
No, those that are drawn are drawn effectively. (Gene)
YOU HOPE! (Wes)
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
A straight forward denial of the words of Jesus Wes.

Whatcha think?

johnp.

 

John P,

My thoughts exactly.. (Just don't have time to type it)... It's hard trying to get ALL of the man out of the man though... From Aristotle, to Pelagius, to Arminius and all the way down the long line of Human secularists that believe there is good in man. If they would only read history they would see that these beliefs are humanistic philosophy that infiltrated the Catholic church and has been handed down and aceepted by LIBERAL protestants that where warned of the eventual "down grade to destructive thought" as Spurgeon put, they might see the light...

 

Hi Gene;
There is nothing in scripture that says when Adam fell we all somehow lost our ability to respond to the truth of Gods Word. Romans 1:20 says man does understand the things of God. that the things of God are manfest within him. In verse 19 so that he is with out excuse. This is talking about the good news of the gospel. The reason this has to be true is because other wise they would have an excuse.
Read it carefully;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
The reason Jn 6 is for the Jews is because some of them had been cut out of the tree of Israel. They were no longer elect. Christ was speaking to Jews. Paul is speaking to Gentiles that was his appointment. Paul also states in;
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Salvation has come to the Gentiles this doesn't say some of the Gentiles it doesn't say the Gentile elect. It says very plainly the Gentiles. You still refuse to accept this as proof of election of all Gentiles that we are able to respond to the invitation of Christ.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
This is where you are wrong. Election is not individual except in your mind.
May the Light of Christ Shine On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi John P;

The only reason you believe as you do is because you believe that the author of Catholicism is right and everyone else is wrong. Catholics still believe there is no Salvation apart from the Church and so did Calvin. After all we have to remember that Calvinism is just reformed Catholicism. There was never anything good in Catholicism in the first place and there still isn't which is why Calvinist and Catholics waver back and forth in there beliefs. Calvinist today do not believe the same things as they did originally. For proof of that all one has to do is read the Institutes of Christianity.

For you to accuse anyone of being self righteous you should take a long look in your mirror. Self righteousness is there starring you in the face. For anyone to claim they are saved from there sins without repentance is the ultimate self righteousness. The Holy Spirit cannot live in sin which is what unforgiven man is in yet Calvinist claim that He enters man and regenerates Him while still in his sinful state. This is false we are saved by the blood of Christ as were the disciples before the Holy Spirit comes and dwells in man.
May The Light Of Christ Shine On Us All;
Mike

 

ILUVLIGHT,

You post mentions Romans 11:11 and was a good post. Dr. A.T. Robertson the Greek scholar seems to be saying that though the Israelites rejected Christ, for the most part they have only made a serious misstep or lapse, but their fall is not final. When the Gentiles were brought under His plan it will create jealousy in some Jews enough so that they will in the ‘last days’ of human history be grafted in again into their own olive tree. [Romans 11:23-24]

Some Calvinists have said on this board that God loves Himself and one of His ways He pleases Himself is to save the relative few and reject to Hell those less fortunate. After all if He really wanted to save all sinful souls He could have done it in this, His sovereign way. But He elected to give human sinners the choice of either hearing and believing or hearing and rejecting His grace. After all, a forced love is not love at all. Only we who chose to have faith in the Lord can rightfully show our love to Him through Christian service, worship, and loving our neighbor as ourselves, or by preaching and witnessing to the saving authority of Jesus Christ. In Romans 11:11 God is saying the Jewish people had and will stumble at the idea of Jesus being the true Messiah, but as He says, God forbid, that that mistake should be their final fall with no hope of returning to Jesus as their true Messiah. Even the Prophet Ezekiel suggests that God finds no delight in portraying His wrath, by allegedly pitching the majority of souls into Hell.

The prophet declares: ‘Have I any pleasure AT ALL, that the wicked should die? Saith the Lord God; and not that he should return from his ways, and live.’

 

Thanks Ray for publishing so much of Hodge's stuff. A fine family that one.

I'll just point out that Hodge was not talking about Adam's free will but about how Adam's will, that is the will that God created in him, which was good and not neutral, but loved God naturally as God created it to do, that is the will he is talking about.

Just another touch of our arrogance shining through I see. We acknowledge that we have the will to do good but fail to do the good we want to. We fail.
Rom 7:15-18 is meant to be a great comfort for the people of God. We see. We see what we are like, we have power and change takes place in us and still we fall continuosly as Christians. That is because we are sinners. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Paul is saying that although his will and desire is to the good he cannot acheive the good he aims at. This is his condition as an Apostle. What's your condition Wes, Ray and padredurand. That is your arrogance. Your arrogance is in holding to the claim that you were better than Paul before you came to Christ.

ILUVLIGHT I've just seen your last post. That above answers who is arrogant in claiming to do that which no one can do.

You really must pay attention man.
Rom 4:11-12 And he [Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

Israel was the type. We are the reality. Can you not grasp this idea? Distinguish between the Jew as the bible does and you will see that Israel is made up of two tribes, one trace their line back to Isaac and the other to Ishmael. It is through Isaac that we are reckoned. Spiritual Israel.
Your 'all' is wasted, it is not the natural children who are God's children. Do you say, that is a home run? The winner?

Why should He draw 'all' men when He says that it is through Isaac that the Children of God trace their line? It is you who say that God wastes His time. He says He calls His sheep by name. Where a general call is given, when men hear the gospel and do not accept it then a greater degree of punishment comes down on that one. God chooses how much to punish a person because God causes that man to behave in the way he does. Don't like it? See Him about it.

You do not know the complete doctrine of Calvinism. To say otherwise just proves your arrogance. If you had any idea then you would not keep making the same error. Israel.

Whoever believes will be saved. The sinful mind is hostile to God and cannot go to Him. Those two truths are not complicated. Those two truths must be preached. The whole counsel of God must be preached otherwise God will hold you to account for the death that will be caused through you.

Your doctrine will not affect your salvation. It will affect your life. It will affect the lives of those you preach your error to. It will affect the rewards on that day but not your joy at seeing the Lord with your own eyes.

johnp.

 

Johnp,
When you read John 17 1-26 did you intentionally leave out John 17:20? Jesus, still in prayer talking to the father, said, "I pray not only for these (the apostles of verse 9) but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me.

We are those he prayed for in verse 20, the apostles are those he prayed for in verse 9.

Sometimes it is convenient to leave out the parts you don't want to deal with!

 

It's really too bad that God made you so totally defeated, so totally unable to see the good that God did create in his created man. NO! that does not mean that man does not sin, for truly ALL have sinned. But that does not mean that ALL are totally depraved either. It means the Good creation that God made has sinned, but is not total, else God would not be redeeming us!

 

Johnp,
Are you deliberately filtering out the fact that in John 6 Jesus is speaking to Jews, and not to gentiles? Are you ignoring the truth of Prophesy regarding the Jews and Jesus?

I suggest you obtain a copy of Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", It contains a section dealing strictly with the 61 major prophesies concerning the Messiah, all of which are fulfilled in Jesus. There may be other sourses, but this one well researched.

 

Hi John P;

Pay Attention to who; You?
When all you can do to explain your theology is to cast doubt on what the Word actually says.

Oh tell us oh Great Englishman what the meaning of "all" is.
You can do better than that can't you? Calvinist one and all are ridiculous to suggest so many different meanings for so many different words. When they plainly mean what they say in context. Your only defense against truth is changing the meanings, Huh!
All of this nonsense to hold up a false theology is starting to be comical
May Christ Shine His Light on You;
Mike

 

Hello rc.

(Just don't have time to type it)

That took me eight hours last night. All last night I was frustrated by the argument going on and I was not able to get involved. Stuttering away. I shall review all of that and give an answer at a later date.
Calvinism is the only religion that says that man is incapable of pleasing God. Arrogant isn't it?HaHa!

...down grade to destructive thought...

Devolution. The Lord maybe preparing the great apostasy. The Arminians have taken over the asylum praise the Lord.

The world is inside the gates of Heaven almost. As it was in Israel of old so it is now in Israel. He knows what He is doing.

Now somebody who should love the light has mentioned something about the whore and the saints, akin?
Now I shall boast.

Ah! Such swift responses! Must have touched a nerve. Let's figure out which one........then we work on that. Their pride must be close to the top I think.

Good to meet you.

johnp.

 

Why can't we argue on the way to the manger?

Afterall, we are going to hug each other and make up, and devote our spirits to Praise of the Christ in the manner that he came to us as an infant, destined for the cross. What he did, he did for us with no agenda other than to provide the means of breaking man's bondage to death so that we can through our faith in Him have everlasting life with him.

 

Proverbs 16:9 9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.