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13th apostle...Founder of Catholicism

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jimraboin, Nov 15, 2002.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Actually it is Scripture that says that the Church is the pillar of truth.

    No this is not the basis for the claim of infallibity.

    Faulty reasoning.

    What you did was selectively use another man's work and words to "prove" your conclusions. You ignore the fact that that author offered far more in support of the opposite of what you believe and in fact came to very different conclusions that yours.
    Apparently you have not been reading my posts. I continued to refer you to other sentences in your own source as rebuttal. I have also asked several questions which you have never acknowledged. I have not once "offered personal loyalties".
    What claim?
     
  2. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I believe the point is trying to made that this is not a reference to the Catholic Church, but to another. ;)
     
  3. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Yes. My point is Catholic institution is not the Church and never has been. What it is based upon historical facts herein disclosed is the biggest deception ever forced onto mankind. If it isn't the gates of hell, it is a pretty big funnel aimed in that direction.

    So Ron, where is your historical information refuting what I found? All you have done, again, is to offer your own personal assertions. Not convincing.

    Jim
     
  4. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Ok. Jim, I'll ask the same question of you for the fourth or fifth time without you answering.

    What claim (of the Catholic Church) are you proving false?

    What claim?

    Ron
     
  5. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Ron.

    Are you so dull that you don't get what I've said?

    Here is Catholic claim. Catholic institution claims to be the pillar of truth and is infallible as a result.

    That is the claim.

    Get it now?

    Jim
     
  6. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Very good.

    Now show where the Church has made this claim. Specifically that it is "infallible as a result of being the pillar of truth".

    One step at a time.

    Ron
     
  7. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Ron,

    If you don't acknowledge Catholic claim, then we have nothing more to say. Stop playing games. Either refute me with history or support Catholic claims via the same.

    What a joke!

    Jim

    [ November 28, 2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: jimraboin ]
     
  8. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Still laughing, Ron.
     
  9. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Very good.

    Now show where the Church has made this claim. Specifically that it is "infallible as a result of being the pillar of truth".

    One step at a time.

    Ron
    </font>[/QUOTE]bump
     
  10. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Ron,

    If you don't acknowledge Catholic claim, then we have nothing more to say. Stop playing games. Either refute me with history or support Catholic claims via the same.

    What a joke!

    Jim
     
  11. Georgia2002

    Georgia2002 New Member

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    I believe the point is trying to made that this is not a reference to the Catholic Church, but to another. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Tuor,

    Here is a web page that identifies the word Catholic used in the first century to describe the Church of the first Christians.

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/catholic.asp

    Georgia [​IMG]
     
  12. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Hi Georgia,

    What you are referring to is from what Catholic's group as early fathers. But early fathers all have their source in Eusebius or his contemporaries. Nothing original exists to confirm or deny what Eusebius said they said. And Eusebius lived over 300 years after the time of early believers.

    So your assertion that the early believers called the Body of Christ catholic is in no way proof of Rome's claims of being THE Catholic pillar and foundation of truth.

    If Eusebius was corrupt along with Constantine, then what they say is not necessarily what actually occurred. What you need to do is either refute my counterclaim through superior historical information or accept the idea Catholicism was an invention created to serve a Roman design.

    Jim
     
  13. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    Well, now I'm confused. What is the claim that you want "refuted with superior historical information"? You seem to have two on the table. Which is it?

    Ron
     
  14. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Ron,

    Both.

    Jim
     
  15. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Ron,

    Both.

    Jim
     
  16. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    I thought that it might be productive to go back to the start of this thread.

    What is the connection between the first post to this thread and the claim that the Church is infallible?

    You keep talking about "superior historical information" and so on, but frankly, I'm not getting it.

    Could you explain your point in the most simple way that you are able?

    Ron
     
  17. Netcurtains3

    Netcurtains3 Guest

    Hi,
    This constantine stuff you can take too far.

    I mean by the same rational you could argue that Henry 8th and William of Orange are the kings of protestantism.

    To fall into that trap is to fall into the same trap you think the kings made. You would be looking at religion too monarch-centrically and ignoring all the great protestant and catholic thinkers and holymen and women that actually are the bed rock of both schools of the faith.

    More Jews (As a percentage) in the USA have abortions then catholic or protestants (using 1995 statistics) - so what - what does it matter?

    I think it matters if the jewish girls that are having abortions are from the Orthodox wing as they will have no women clergy to turn to.

    Lets face it if a definition of a woman is someone who gives birth to another then Adam is more woman then man - he gave "birth" to eve.

    There should be women priests. Many protestants have female clergy and they have lower abortion rates then catholics (this statistic is blind - it might simply be that there are more catholics that are in the child rearing age group).

    Jesus understood the woman who bled and cured her. How many years do male priests/clergy spend studying female gynecological and other problems? About five minutes or ten?

    13th Apostle - Is it really interesting? how?

    [ December 02, 2002, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
     
  18. jimraboin

    jimraboin Guest

    Ron,

    Simple terms:

    Jesus founded his Ekklesia in Israel upon truths God vested there in times past. There was no Catholicism at this time. Only believing Jews from Israel who accepted Israel's Messiah who came in fulfillment to Israel's Scriptures by the command of Israel's God.

    Emperor Constantine hyjacked Israel's form of Christianity and invented what we now know as Catholicism. All things were redefined to serve a Roman design. No longer were the truths and foundations laid in Israel acceptable. Constantine admits he was given "another way" based solely upon his reasoning. Catholicism itself claims to be the pillar of truth and is thereby infallible. Yet no Jew from Israel who accepted Jesus as his Messiah and who also celebrated Israel's festivals was spared by Catholicism. They were marked heretics and suffered greatly under a Roman sword. Constantine made it law that heresy against his religion was also heresy against Rome itself. So now Catholicism has gained an earthly sword by which all men must submit to or suffer its wrath.

    In simple terms Catholicism is not the pillar of truth nor is it infallible. In fact, it isn't even the Body of Christ. It is the apostate church...the harlot...

    Simple enough?

    Jim
     
  19. Netcurtains3

    Netcurtains3 Guest

    "only believin jews?"
    I think not.
    Read Acts "Greeks, Romans, Iranians, Cretans, Arabs - even guys from Afghanistan". What bible are you reading?

    Note: The Arabs come last after Cretans - is that a subconscience type of "-ism" or just the way it came out? (Herod was part Arab).
    Acts Ch2 v9
     
  20. Georgia2002

    Georgia2002 New Member

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    Hi Jim,
    Deny it all you want but the facts are there. Catholics were around since the day of Pentecost around the year 29. The Catholic Church was the underground religion, because of pagan persecution. We thank Constantine (313AD) for helping the first Christians after the miracle he witnessed. "In this sign you shall conquer" (the cross of light.) Yes, he WAS a pagan, but thanks be to God, Christianity wiped out paganism.

    The Catholic Church
    The first great change in Christian history was Christianity’s spread from Palestine to the rest of the Mediterranean world in the first few decades after Jesus’ death
    Roman Empire. Nonetheless, the characteristically Christian figure of the bishop had clearly emerged by the middle of the 2nd century.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761573737&pn=1#s2

    [Gr.,universal], the body of Christians, living and dead, considered as an organization. The word catholic was first used c.110 to describe the Church by St. Ignatius of Antioch. In speaking of the time before the Reformation in Western Europe, Catholic is technically used to mean orthodox (i.e., those who accept the tradition as mediated by the Roman Church). Today in English it usually means the Roman Catholic Church
    http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/c1/catholic.asp

    Catholic(from Greek katholikos, “universal”), the characteristic that, according to ecclesiastical writers since the 2nd century, distinguished the Christian Church at large from local communities or from ...
    http://www.britannica.com/search?miid=1126295&query=catholic

    http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

    Thought for today:
    It is now the hour for us to rise from
    the sleep of sin and of religious indifference.
    Let us start our preparation for the blessing
    of Christmas with great confidence in Jesus,
    for "Those who trust in Him shall not
    be confounded."

    God Bless,
    Georgia
     
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