1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured 15 Nisan

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 30, 2024.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some confusion seems to exist on why Jesus could not have been crucified on 15 Nisan.

    15 Nisan is the second day of unleavened bread, the first day of the Festivsl of Unleavened Bread, and the day after the Passover.

    The 14th of Nisan is Passover (it marks when death passed over the Jews in Ecodus).
    The 15th is the day God delivered the Jews from Egypt.
    The 16th through the 20th is Chol HaMoed.
    The 21st is another high day.

    No work could be done on the 15th and the 21st.
    These two days were holy convocations.
    The day was set aside for prayer and reading Scripture. This was a holy assembly.

    Obviously the Jewush leaders would not attend a 15 Nisan crucifixion (they would be otherwise engaged). But also it would violate Jewish law.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is the reason Joseph of Arimathaea, a devout Jew, waited until sunset to ask for Jesus' body. Mark 15:42-43.
    Geneva Bible, Mark 15:42-43, And nowe when the night was come (because it was the day of the preparation that is before the Sabbath) Ioseph of Arimathea, an honorable counsellour, which also looked for the kingdome of God, came, and went in boldly vnto Pilate, and asked the body of Iesus.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are getting stuck on a 8 hour period of time.

    Bottom line - Either you ate correct or Scripture is correct. We can't have it both ways.

    Your claim is that the Jews had Jesus crucified during the holy convocation during a time when work was forbidden and the Jewish leaders were engaged in the assembly at the Temple.

    Scripture states that the Jews timing was kill Jesus prior to 15 Nisan, that no work was to be done on 15 Nisan, that it was.a holy convocation, that the Jewish leaders didn't enter the building because they wanted to eat passover which woukd continue on that holy day, that the Jewish leaders and the people woukd be otherwise engaged on 15 Nisan.

    It is your counting vs Scripture.

    I don't know the exact year. I bieve 33 is the best choice. I conceded it could be a Wendsday but I do not believe it is. @Alan Gross and I disagree on the day.

    BUT it is posdible that @Alan Gross is correct and I am wrong.

    It is not possible that you are correct because your timeline goes against Scripture. And all of this because you are stuck on the word "evening" not bring specific enough for your liking.

    Simply put, Jesus could not have been crucified on 15 Nisan - regardless of day, regardless of year - and the Bible be correct.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A misstatement Exodus 12:5-6, Your lamb shall be without blemish, a yearling male; ye shall take it from the sheep, or from the goats. And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Scripture is correct. Mark 14:12-16, is the 14th. The day before Christ's crucifixion. The 15th!
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is the afternoon before Christ's crucifixion. But Scripture is also correct that Christ was crucified before 15 Nisan.

    You pick one thing, misinterpreted, to say "Scripture is correct" while attributing other passages as error.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My point is that the crucifixion could not happen on 15 Nisan and the Bible be without error.

    I don't know the year because we truly can't (I've been working off of the lunar calendar via a program, but the Jews used observation and we can't truly know.

    What can we know?

    1. We can know that Jesus was crucified on the day after (by our calendar) the passover was killed.

    2. We can know that the 1st Century Jews killed the Passover in the early afternoon before the morning of Q4 Nisan.

    3. We can know that Jesus was crucified before 15 Nisan.


    How you put that together os your business. But you can't reject any of those three known points without denying at least one biblical truth about the timing of the crucifixion.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My point is that the crucifixion could not happen on 15 Nisan and the Bible be without error.

    I don't know the year because we truly can't (I've been working off of the lunar calendar via a program, but the Jews used observation and we can't truly know.

    What can we know?

    1. We can know that Jesus was crucified on the day after (by our calendar) the passover was killed.

    2. We can know that the 1st Century Jews killed the Passover in the early afternoon before the morning of Q4 Nisan.

    3. We can know that Jesus was crucified before 15 Nisan.


    How you put that together os your business. But you can't reject any of those three known points without denying at least one biblical truth about the timing of the crucifixion.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My point is that the crucifixion could not happen on 15 Nisan and the Bible be without error.

    I don't know the year because we truly can't (I've been working off of the lunar calendar via a program, but the Jews used observation and we can't truly know.

    What can we know?

    1. We can know that Jesus was crucified on the day after (by our calendar) the passover was killed.

    2. We can know that the 1st Century Jews killed the Passover in the early afternoon before the morning of Q4 Nisan.

    3. We can know that Jesus was crucified before 15 Nisan.


    How you put that together os your business. But you can't reject any of those three known points without denying at least one biblical truth about the timing of the crucifixion.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How before? Mark 14:12-16 is identified as the 14th of Nisan.
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You, not Mark, identify it as 14 Nisan. You do this by going to Exodus (which contradicts Luke equating the Passover with the Feast).

    This is what Mark says:

    Mark 14:12 On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed

    In the 1st Century when was the first day of unleavened bread, when the Passover was killed?

    It was the afternoon before the morning of 14 Nisan.

    If the 14th was on a Friday then the killing and sacrifice of the Passover was moved about an hour earlier. But the latest the Passover would be killed was between 2 and 3 pm on the afternoon before the morning of the 14th.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @37818 ,

    Let's look at your timeline with Wed being Nisan 14, but per 1st century Jewish laws.

    Mark 14:12 would be Tuesday afternoon around 3pm.

    Mark 14:22 (the meal) would be Tuesday at sundown.

    Mark 14:32 (the Garden) woukd be Tuesday night

    Mark 15:1 (Jesus before the government) would be early Wednesday morning.

    Mark 15:13 would be Wendsday around 9am

    Mark 15:37 woukd be around 3pm on Wednesday

    Mark 15:42 (burial) would be just before sunset Wednesday



    How do we know this? Because we know the Jewish laws.


    Now, I favor Friday instead of Wendsday. This moves up Mark 14:12 about an hour (around 2 pm on Thursday) because under Jewish law if the morning of 14 Nisan falls on Friday then the killing and sacrifice of the Passover is moved up about an hour (probably 1.5 hours our time).
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @37818 ,

    I haven't looked this up (when it fell) but you may have -

    As you probably know the Sanhedrin set the calendars and adjusted them as needed to make sure that Rosh Hashanah would never fall on a Sabbath.


    Do you know the dates for Rosh Hashanah in the years we are discussing?
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,511
    Likes Received:
    453
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All of these events take place on "the 14th of Nison",
    and are given, along with THE TIME THEY TOOK PLACE.
    until the very last statement at the bottom, which begins 15 Nisan;

    "6:00 pm, at sunset
    the First Day of Unleavened Bread, 15 Nisan,
    a High Holy Day where no work is allowed, begins."


    (Tuesday, Nisan 13 - 14):

    The Last Passover:
    The disciples prepare for the Passover (Matthew 26:17-19, Mark 14:12-16, Luke 22:7-13).
    6:00 pm, at sunset, at the start of Nisan 14, they observe the last Passover Jesus will partake of (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, John 13).

    Jesus then dips the "sop" and gives it to Judas, immediately after which Satan the devil possesses him. The "sop" was a sign to John that it was Judas who would betray him (Matthew 26:21-25, Mark 14:18-21, Luke 22:21-23, John 13:18-26).

    Jesus institutes The Lord's Supper, by taking of a small piece of unleavened bread during the Christian Passover which represents His broken body. He lastly institutes the taking of a small amount of the fruit of the vine during the service which will represent His blood freely shed to make the New Covenant possible (Matthew 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:17-20, 1Corinthians 11:23-29).

    Waiting to be Arrested:
    At roughly 9 p.m., while walking to the Garden of Gethsemane (at the foot of the Mount of Olives), Jesus tells the disciples He is the True Vine (John 15:1-27). He offers His final words of encouragement (John 16:1-31) and again states that the disciples will leave Him (John 16:32 - 33).

    (Wednesday, Nisan 14):

    Arrest and First Trial:
    After midnight, when it is still Wednesday, on Jewish days, Judas arrives in the Garden of Gethsemane accompanied by armed officers and other men provided by the religious leaders. Judas, as a signal of which person to arrest, gives Jesus a kiss (Matthew 26:45 - 49, Mark 14:41 - 45, Luke 22:47 - 48, John 18:1 - 8).

    The High Priest, at approximately 2 a.m., questions Jesus about His disciples and teachings but does not receive an answer. Frustrated, he adjures Him by the living God to state whether or not He is the True Son of God (Matthew 26:62 - 63). The answer he receives so angers him that he tears his clothes and cries out that Christ has committed blasphemy.

    Deserving of Death:
    The High Priest then immediately asks the council for a verdict, to which they unanimously shout that the death penalty should be carried out (Matthew 26:59 - 68, Mark 14:55 - 65, Luke 22:63 - 65). Peter then denies Him three times (Matthew 26:69 - 75, Mark 14:66 - 72, Luke 22:56 - 62, John 18:17, 25 - 27).

    A Second Trial:
    At approximately 5 to 6 a.m., because Jewish law demanded two sessions of the Sanhedrin hear and try a defendant, a second trial of Jesus was held around 5 a.m. This second trial, however, seems little more than a "rubber stamp" or automatic approval of the first trial's decision. He is bound and sent to Pontius Pilate, the Roman Prefect of Judea, for punishment around 6 a.m. (Matthew 27:1-2, Mark 15:1, Luke 22:66-23:1, John 18:28).

    Judas Iscariot, at sunrise, repents of betraying Christ but still hangs himself. The Chief Priests decide to buy a potter's field with thirty pieces of silver Judas gave back to them (Matthew 27:3 - 10, Acts 1:15 - 19).

    Jesus Before the Romans:
    At approximately 7 a.m., instead of blasphemy, the Jewish leaders bring Jesus to Pontius Pilate under the charge of treason against Rome. They do this in order to improve their chances of the Romans putting Him to death.

    While Pilate questions Jesus (Matthew 27:11 - 14, Mark 15:2 - 5, Luke 23:2 - 4, John 18:29 - 30) he discovers He is from Galilee and sends Him to Herod Antipas (Tetrarch of Galilee and son of Herod the Great) for judgment. Herod questions Him but receives no answers. Herod and his soldiers mock Him, put a splendid robe on Him, and send Him back to Pilate (Luke 23:5 - 12).

    Pontius Pilate, at roughly 8 a.m., tells the Jewish religious leaders that he and Herod Antipas find Jesus innocent. Although he wishes to release Him (Luke 23:13 - 15, John 18:31 - 38), he relies on a tradition that frees one prisoner before the Feast in the hope that the people of Jerusalem will choose to set Christ free.

    The people, however, stirred up by the Jewish leaders who hate Jesus, cry out that they want Barabbas (a convicted murderer) freed and the Lord killed (Matthew 27:15 - 23, Mark 15:6 - 14, Luke 23:16 - 23, John 18:39 - 40).

    Pilate, while listening to the response of the crowd, receives a message from his wife stating she had a troubling dream that warned Jesus should be left alone as He was a righteous man (Matthew 27:19).

    Pilate, noticing the Jerusalem crowd before him is ready to riot, washes his hands to symbolize he is guiltless of Jesus' blood (Matthew 27:24 - 25). He then releases Barabbas and has Jesus severely beaten and scourged (Matthew 27:26-31, Mark 15:15-20, Luke 23:24-25, John 19:1-5). The continuing pressure from the Jewish religious leaders, as well as the crowd, forces his hand and he has the Lord crucified (John 19:6-15).

    Taken to Golgotha:
    The soldiers take Jesus to Golgotha, also known as Calvary and the Place of the Skull, to be crucified. Along the route, they force Simon of Cyrene to carry His cross (Matthew 27:32 - 33, Mark 15:21 - 22, Luke 23:26 - 31, John 19:16 - 17).

    Tortured in Public:
    Jesus, from 9 a.m. to noon, is nailed to the cross. He is crucified along with two thieves (Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28, Luke 23:32-33, John 19:18). He is given wine (vinegar) mixed with gall to drink while on the cross which He refuses (Matthew 27:34, Mark 15:23). Roman soldiers also cast lots for His clothes.

    Pontius Pilate has the charge against Him written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin and put on Jesus' cross. Near the end of His life Christ asks God the Father to forgive those that are killing Him (Matthew 27:35-36, Mark 15:24-25, Luke 23:34, John 19:23-24).

    Mocked and Watched:
    Some in the crowd, where Christ is crucified, stare at Him in amazement. Others such as Roman soldiers, members of the Sanhedrin (chief priests, scribes, elders), and even the two thieves also being crucified, mock Him.

    Family and friends, at a distance, watch Jesus suffer on the cross. These include His mother Mary, her sister, Mary Magdalene, and the apostle John (Matthew 27:39 - 45, 55 - 56, Mark 15:29 - 33, 40 - 41, Luke 23:35 - 44, 48 - 49).

    John Given Care of Mary:
    Darkness covers the entire land from noon to 3 p.m. Jesus tells His mother, Mary, to now consider the apostle John her son and tells John to take care of His mother Mary
    (John 19:25-27).


    Jesus Dies:
    At 3 p.m. Jesus Christ, the Savior of man, is forsaken by God and cries out with a loud voice: "Eli Eli, lama sabachthani?" Some in the crowd think He is calling out to the prophet Elijah (Matthew 27:46 - 47, Mark 15:34 - 35). He accepts vinegar (sour wine) to wet His lips. A spear is thrust into His side and He cries out with a loud voice "It is Finished!" His last words are, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit."

    The Jews, desiring the death of those crucified before the High Holy Day starts (around 6 pm), asks Pilate to break their legs. Pilate agrees. The legs of those crucified with Jesus are broken, but His are not since He is already dead (John 19:31-37).

    Buried in Rich Man's Tomb:
    Pilate, just before sunset, allows Joseph of Arimathea, a rich member of the Sanhedrin, to take the body of Jesus. Joseph and Nicodemus wrap His body in fine linen with a mixture of myrrh and aloes and bury Him in the brand new tomb Joseph had made for himself (Matthew 27:57 - 61, Mark 15:42 - 47, Luke 23:50 - 55, John 19:38 - 42).
    ...

    (Thursday, Nisan 15):

    6:00 pm, at sunset,
    the First Day of Unleavened Bread, 15 Nisan,
    a High Holy Day where no work is allowed, begins.
     
    #12 Alan Gross, Mar 31, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2024
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nowhere does God's word teach the 15th of Nisan is the first day of unleavened bread.
    Not Exodus 12:18.
    Not
    Leviticus 23:6.
    Not Numbers 28:17.
    Not Deuteronomy 16:8.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. In the first century the feast was also called the Passover. Luke 22:1, Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
    The feast begins the 15th of Nisan.
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But you keep appealing to Exodus - NOT 1st Century Jewish practice or laws.

    In Exodus the Feast of Unleavened Bread FOLLOWS the Passover.

    And in Exodus it would be unlawful for the Jews to arrest, hold a trial by councel, hand Jesus over, attend an execution, and buty Jesus on 15 Nisan.



    You are not being consistent. When it suits your ideas you appeal to Exodus, when it doesn't you appeal to Jewish custom.



    Between 1 and 3 pm prior to the morning of Nisan 14 the pasdover was killed.

    What day do you think that was?
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nope. Luke says the feast was approaching.

    Luke 22:1-2 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching.
    2 The chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.

    Mark tells us this was two days before the Passover. But yes, the Passover was approaching.

    Mark 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to seize Him by stealth and kill Him;

    Two days away is aporoaching.....you are ignoring Scripture.


    Luke22: 3-7. And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.
    4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them.
    5 They were glad and agreed to give him money.
    6 So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the crowd.
    7 Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.


    The Passover was killed between 1 and 3 pm prior to the morning of Nisan 14 and sacrificed about an hour later.

    Your timing does not work.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another point - Jewish sources (Jewish laws and writings) from Jesus' time are unanimous in stating that the Passover was killed on the afternoon before the morning of 14 Nisan.


    One may argue that this isn't how it should be. But we know that is how it was.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @37818 ,

    To make things even more complicated -

    In the 1st Century there were two Seder meals (one on 13 Nisan and one on 14 Nisan). Both were considered a celebration of Passover. The first is refered to as seudah maphsehket.

    Now, this was controversial with some Jews. BUT this didn't matter because the Sanhedrin made the laws.

    That said, I don't believe this the meal in question (it was primarily for the Disporia).

    Also, Mark fits well with Jesus eating the Seder meal and being crucified on 14 Nisan.

    Another interesting point is that this is the typical Jewish Christian understanding.
     
  21. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,018
    Likes Received:
    1,239
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mark 14:12 is the 14th per the Law. Matthew 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    I refuse to deny what I understand to be true.

    Mere denials do not disprove any truth.
     
  22. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,411
    Likes Received:
    3,556
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The issue is "your truth" may not be true.

    It is not something you should be dogmatic about.

    How do you account for the Jews arresting Jesus, holding a trial (the counsel), and having Jesus crucified on a day of holy convocation?

    In terns of the Law 15 Nisan was more significant an observation than 14 Nisan.

    Also, what do you do with passages stating that the timing of Jesus' arrest and death was to prevent it from occurring during the festival?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...