2 Peter 2:1 shows Jesus died for the non-elect

[ICHTHUS]

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves"

The word "bought" here is from the Greek, "agorazo", which refers to the "redemption" of Jesus Christ, of His blood shed for ALL sinners. This use is as defined in the standard Greek lexicons of Arndt and Gingrich, Thayer, and Robinson, and is also used in 1 Corinthians 6:20, 7:23, for this purpose. These people who are said to have been BOUGHT by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ, are REJECTING this fact, and therefore will bring "destruction on themselves", as did Judas.

See also Jude 4

"For some men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord."

Here the same word "Master", Greek, "despotes" is used for the Lord Jesus Christ. Not, as some try to get out of what it teaches in 2 Peter, by saying that it refers to God the Father.

 

[MennoSota]

Are you always so poor in exegesis of God's word?
2 Peter 2:1 has nothing to do with election. How do you screw it up so badly, ichthus?

 

[ICHTHUS]

Are you always so poor in exegesis of God's word?
2 Peter 2:1 has nothing to do with election. How do you screw it up so badly, ichthus?

IF you care to read, I am dealing with the ATONEMENT of Jesus, that He actually DIED FOR EVERYONE, which in itself PROVES the Calvinistic teaching of "election" to be FALSE.

 

[MennoSota]

IF you care to read, I am dealing with the ATONEMENT of Jesus, that He actually DIED FOR EVERYONE, which in itself PROVES the Calvinistic teaching of "election" to be FALSE.

The verse you quote has nothing to do with atonement.

If you care to read Ephesians 1, you will see definitive proof that the atonement is for those who are predestined. But, you refuse to read anything that goes against your non biblical opinion.

 

[Yeshua1]

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves"

The word "bought" here is from the Greek, "agorazo", which refers to the "redemption" of Jesus Christ, of His blood shed for ALL sinners. This use is as defined in the standard Greek lexicons of Arndt and Gingrich, Thayer, and Robinson, and is also used in 1 Corinthians 6:20, 7:23, for this purpose. These people who are said to have been BOUGHT by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ, are REJECTING this fact, and therefore will bring "destruction on themselves", as did Judas.

See also Jude 4

"For some men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord."

Here the same word "Master", Greek, "despotes" is used for the Lord Jesus Christ. Not, as some try to get out of what it teaches in 2 Peter, by saying that it refers to God the Father.

there hesesy is thattheir theology shows them denying even that Jesus death paid for atonement!

 

[ICHTHUS]

The verse you quote has nothing to do with atonement.

If you care to read Ephesians 1, you will see definitive proof that the atonement is for those who are predestined. But, you refuse to read anything that goes against your non biblical opinion.

"BOUGHT", as used in 1 Corinthians, is used for the ATONEMENT of Jesus Christ. Please read Scripture references before posting replies

 

[MennoSota]

"BOUGHT", as used in 1 Corinthians, is used for the ATONEMENT of Jesus Christ. Please read Scripture references before posting replies

I read your scripture reference.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves"

There is nothing about atonement in the scritpure you quoted. Once again, you project a meaning on the text because you have a presupposition you are forcing on the Bible. You do a terrible job of exegesis, ichthus. In fact, terrible may be an understatement for how badly you are butchering God's word.

 

[TCassidy]

IF you care to read, I am dealing with the ATONEMENT of Jesus, that He actually DIED FOR EVERYONE, which in itself PROVES the Calvinistic teaching of "election" to be FALSE.

I have already replied to this misunderstanding in the other thread but so far you have not responded.

Jesus died for all. That is not in contention. But the atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for believers (which the bible calls the elect).

Christ's Sacrifice bestows blessing on all people, just or unjust (saved or unsaved).

Matthew 5:45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.

 

[Yeshua1]

"BOUGHT", as used in 1 Corinthians, is used for the ATONEMENT of Jesus Christ. Please read Scripture references before posting replies

Are there some whose Jesus death/blood atoned for and purchased back who are lost ?

 

[ICHTHUS]

Are there some whose Jesus death/blood atoned for and purchased back who are lost ?

YES, thousands. But, it is wrong to assume that just because a person for whom Jesus died ends up in hell, that somehow His death was in vain, or that there is some deficiency in His death. It is because sinful man "will not come", that they are damned to eternal punishment. This is clearly thought in the Bible for those who wish to see it!

 

[ICHTHUS]

I have already replied to this misunderstanding in the other thread but so far you have not responded.

Jesus died for all. That is not in contention. But the atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for believers (which the bible calls the elect).

Christ's Sacrifice bestows blessing on all people, just or unjust (saved or unsaved).

Matthew 5:45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.

I thought I have already responded to this?

 

[Yeshua1]

YES, thousands. But, it is wrong to assume that just because a person for whom Jesus died ends up in hell, that somehow His death was in vain, or that there is some deficiency in His death. It is because sinful man "will not come", that they are damned to eternal punishment. This is clearly thought in the Bible for those who wish to see it!

God did not intend the death of Jesus to save all sinners...

 

[ICHTHUS]

God did not intend the death of Jesus to save all sinners...

That is YOUR own opinion and NOT what the Bible teaches. Why can you not tell me what John 3:16-17 teaches? As I have shown more than once, the language used cannot be for the "elect" only, as it is "conditional" which makes it possible for the "elect" to be lost, if you take "world" there to mean the "elect" only.

 

[TCassidy]

That is YOUR own opinion and NOT what the Bible teaches.

Hmmm. So, are you saying that God intended something but He just wasn't good enough at being God to accomplish His intended result? God somehow failed to do what He intended to do?

 

[TCassidy]

Why can you not tell me what John 3:16-17 teaches? As I have shown more than once, the language used cannot be for the "elect" only, as it is "conditional" which makes it possible for the "elect" to be lost, if you take "world" there to mean the "elect" only.

Who says it means the elect only? "God loved the world in this way, He gave His only begotten Son that the ones believing will have eternal life."

How is that difficult to understand?

 

[ICHTHUS]

Hmmm. So, are you saying that God intended something but He just wasn't good enough at being God to accomplish His intended result? God somehow failed to do what He intended to do?

No, please do NOT put words into my mouth! I never said anything what you falsely charge. It is indeed false to say that God never intended the death of Jesus Christ for the salvation of ALL sinners. This is exactly what the Bible teaches, that Jesus' death is for the salvation of all mankind. You people cannot see past your warped Calvinistic "theology" that it is the likes of YOU who teach complete nonsense about the Atonement and for whom Jesus actually died. You distort the plain Teachings of the Bible to say things that it does not, and use fancy words and statements to promote what YOU think is the truth, and then try to distort what people like myself have to say.

 

[ICHTHUS]

Who says it means the elect only? "God loved the world in this way, He gave His only begotten Son that the ones believing will have eternal life."

How is that difficult to understand?

That He gave His only Son for the entire world, whether they are lost or saved in the end, ALL have been Atoned for, but all will NOT accept this Atonement for the forgiveness of their sins, but seek to enter heaven on their own merits, which is impossible.

 

[TCassidy]

No, please do NOT put words into my mouth! I never said anything what you falsely charge.

But Yeshua1 said "God did not intend the death of Jesus to save all sinners..."

To which you replied, "That is YOUR own opinion and NOT what the Bible teaches."

So if the bible does NOT teach that God did not intend to save all sinners, then are you not saying that God DID intend to save all sinners but somehow failed to do so?

 

[TCassidy]

YOU who teach complete nonsense about the Atonement and for whom Jesus actually died.

I teach that Jesus died for all. Do you deny that?

ALL have been Atoned for

If a person's sins have all been atoned for then the debt has been paid in full so how can that person ever go to hell?

but all will NOT accept this Atonement for the forgiveness of their sins,

Wait a minute. The atonement is not offered to us. The atonement is offered to the one who was offended. The atonement is offered to God, not us. So, as it was never offered to us we can't reject it.

 

[ICHTHUS]

But Yeshua1 said "God did not intend the death of Jesus to save all sinners..."

To which you replied, "That is YOUR own opinion and NOT what the Bible teaches."

So if the bible does NOT teach that God did not intend to save all sinners, then are you not saying that God DID intend to save all sinners but somehow failed to do so?

NO, the Bible clearly says that "God is not willing that any should perish" (2 Peter 3:9), which is speaking of EVERYONE, and not just the "elect", otherwise these words mean nothing, as if He would will that the "elect" be saved? And in 1 Timothy 2:3-4, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", where the context with verses 1 and 2 shows that ALL means the entire human race. And, Ezekiel 18:23, "Do I have any pleasure (heb. desire) at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?" Clearly it is God's "WILL" that everyone be saved, but we know from His Word, that all will not be saved. There is NO failure on God's part, but man for not accepting His conditions for salvation.