3rd of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Title: 3rd of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Prophecynut: //Some versions have "day of Christ" and others have "day of the Lord," with the latter being correct due to the context of this chapter. The Thessalonians were suffering trials and tribulations somewhat similar to what the day of the Lord would be like. Mentioned in this chapter is the man of lawlessness, opposition to God, works of Satan, counterfeit miracles, every sort of evil and wickedness. Surely this points to the Tribulation and that day of judgment and not to the day of Chirst and his glorious appearing for the Church.//

This is phase three of our interesting discussion
getting into the meaning of the prophecies of 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5
and 2 Thessalonians 1 & 2.

The old topic #1: 2 Thess 2:1-4, the Rapture is at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3350.html?

The old topic #2: 2 Thess 2:1-4, the Rapture is at:

Page 1:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3429.html?

page 20:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3429/20.html

 

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

Tee hee

Some just don't know who is coming and who
is going.


Rev 19:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the armies which were in heauen followed
him vpon white horses, clothed in fine linnen,
white and cleane.

This will be a miracle, I don't know how
to ride a horse.

BTW, I note if you see this assembly of
white clothed saints on white horses, it
will look exactly like water clouds.

Rev 1:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
Behold he commeth with clouds, and euery eye
shal see him, and they also which pearced
him: and all kinreds of the earth shall
waile because of him: euen so. Amen.

In the second coming, Jesus COMES with clouds;
in the pretribulation rapture Jesus COMES
in the clouds.

In teh second coming, 'all kinreds of the
earth shall waile'; in the pretribulation
rapture we for whom the Lord comes will
Rejocice, for our Redemption Cometh Nigh!

- pretribulation rapture Graemlin,
notice the hand ready for Jesus to grab us.

I hope when Jesus comes to get me at the
pretribulation rapture i'm still alive and am
with some non-christians. As I start to rise
i'm going to grab one in each hand.
I'll do the short form of the Roman Road
to Salvation. About 35,000 feet high i'll
make the invitation to accept Jesus as
personal Lord and Savior ending with
"or else I let you go"

 

BobRyan: //Hopefully all can also read in 2Thess 2 that
"THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the apostacy comes"
that great apostacy of the Christian church seen
during the dark ages when superstition ruled
in Christ's place over an apostate church.//

2Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1585):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,

The 'departing' is when the saints leave this
world for heaven BEFORE the Tribulation.

2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes,
for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sinne bee reuealed,
the sonne of perdition,

The 'falling way' is when the saints fall away from this
world into the hands of Jesus: bound
for heaven BEFORE the Tribulation.

 

BobRyan: // ... it is then clear to see that both Matt 24 and Rev 19-20
are followoing that SAME unified sequence as is put together
with 1Thess 4 combined with 2Thess 2.//

Amen, Brother BobRyan - you are RIGHT ON!!
Well, not just Rev 19-20 but the whole book of Revelation:

---------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

BobRyan: //But there are always those whose traditions will "need" to jumble up events 1 through 3 no matter what scripture says.

Case in point - - Ed is always compelled to do the slight of hand trick below - inserting Vs 31-55 between vs 15 and vs 21 of Matt 24 - because otherwise Matt 24 does not match up with what Ed "needs" it to say..

quote:Ed said

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3504.html#000008

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44
2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

And yet that sequence is not found in Matt 24 – so … he jumbles the order as “if” it did. But in so doing you are only showing the “need” to have read an order other than what scripture gave you.//

Cute, debating what i'm going to say next
I think it is quite a strech from "retoric device' to
your 'slight of hand trick'. It is the Bible uses the
'retoric device'; it is BobRyan who claims 'slight.
I don't find it a 'slight of hand trick' when the Bible
uses a 'retoric device' in prophetic literature.

Hardly anybody ouside the field of English grammer
is aware of what a 'polysyndeton' is all about.
Yet I describe it below.

Here is my writing on how Matthew 24 supports the
pretribulation rapture of the church age saints
(both Christians and Messianic Jews):
--------------------------------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
------------------------------------------

in #2 DeafPostrib posted: //Matt. 24:13 is not talking about the future seven year tribulation period. This verse is speaking to us, that we should be faithful and be endure throughout our life, and do not give up while facing trials, tribulations, persecutions, etc. till we die or Christ comes, then we shall overcometh them as we endureth//

Yes, as i said: //Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.//

 

BobRyan: //Impossible to miss if you don't eisegete and re-arrange the text.//

'eisegete'? not easy to find in my dictionary.

However 'polysyndeton' is in my dicitonar, but is
not adequately explained.

How do you outline Chapter 24 of Matthew?

 

Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples
came vnto him priuately, saying,
I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must come to passe, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my names sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world, for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great signes and wonders: insomuch that (if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert, goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see the Sonne of man coming in the clouds of heauen, with
power and great glory.

III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking, marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

 

BobRyan: //0. church age continues – you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)//

Quite imposible.

3. The Millennial Messanic Kingdom will be lilteral.
But it will be a physical reign on a real Earth from
a real throne of David in a real Jerusalem - all
predicted in the Bible.

Event 2 cannot be after the Tribulation and as
predicted. Once the Tribulation Starts, it's course
is timed and predicted by the Bible. (When it starts
is NOT predected by the Bible, no man can know it)
Daniel 9 especially 27 speaks of a 7-year week and
two 3½-year half-weeks. The Antichrist will in
the middle of the week commit the AOD = abomination of
desolation, The Antichrist will broker a treaty for
the safety of Jerusalem - two different events.
7-years after the peace treaty and 3½-years after
the AOD then the Second Coming will come RIGH ON
SCHEDULE. By contrast, the pretribulation coming
of Jesus to take His church to heaven is UNPREDICTABLE
by any past event.

Mat 24:36 (KJV1611 Edition):
But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not
the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
Your 'simple' timeline violates this scripture.

1Th 4:16-18 (KJV1611 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descend from heauen with a shout,
with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpe
of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught
vp together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.

I don't see how this can be much comfort if it happens
after the Great Tribulation; it is comforting only before the
Great Tribulation (we are talking 3/4 of humanity getting
killed, not a few million here and there).

1Th 5:2-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
For your selues knowe perfectly that the day of the Lord
so commeth as a thiefe in the night.
3 For when they shal say, Peace and safety: then sudden
destructio commeth vpon them, as trauaile vpon a woman
with childe, and they shall not escape.

Your 'simple' timeline violates this scripture.

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him - you are RIGHT ON

Amen, Brother Me4Him - tell it like it is going to be!