40%?

[Van]

The Social and Environmental Impacts of Lithium Mining The Paradox of Lithium

South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of electric cars

The Lithium Gold Rush: Inside the Race to Power Electric Vehicles (Published 2021)

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/12/1131...resents-a-climate-versus-environment-conflict

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

The Environmental Impacts of Lithium and Cobalt Mining | Earth.Org

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...48/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara
Cobalt Mining: The Dark Side of the Renewable Energy Transition | Earth.Org

Why Cobalt Mining in the DRC Needs Urgent Attention

For Your Phone and EV, a Cobalt Supply Chain to a Hell on Earth

Cobalt mining for Big Tech is driving child labor, deaths in the Congo

The dangers of cobalt mining in the Congo | News | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/International/cobalt-mining-transforms-city-democratic-republic-congo-satellite/story?id=96795773

The DRC Mining Industry: Child Labor and Formalization of Small-Scale Mining

Life cycle assessment of cobalt extraction process

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/idaho-cobalt-mining-devastated-local-water-revisited-greener/story?id=88754951

The toll of the cobalt mining industry on health and the environment

The old avalanche of non-germane claims approach.

"...mining lithium is not environmentally friendly." The use of undefined claims does not move the ball. Anyone can claim any mining, say of copper or iron, is not environmentally friendly.​

 

[JonC]

So you believe in child slave labor, and exploiting people of color. Anyone can make "non-germane strawman arguments" especially dimwits.

LFP batteries have no colbalt! None! Zip! Nada!

True .... I was going off EV's in general. The lithium environmental concerns remain, but the colbalt part doesn't apply to your battery.

The main mineral in your battery is phosphate. We know lithium poses environmental hazards (particularly heavy metals) in addition to mining in general.

 

[Van]

n commenting about the UAW strike against auto makers, a concern was mentioned about a 40% reduction in the number of autoworkers if the USA transitions to BEV's.

Now we definitely know where some of the anti-BEV propaganda is coming from. On one hand, we are told BEV's are two expensive for ordinary people to buy. But BEV's cost about $10,000 more than similar fossil fueled vehicles.

Question, why do BEV's cost more with far fewer parts and subsystems and labor. Lets say a BEV battery costs about $165 per KW-h and they need 90 KW-hs of battery to needed range, 300 miles plus. That works out to about $15,000 for the battery. And since the actual much simpler vehicle should cost say 25% less, then the cost differential should be less than $5,000. Easily recovered in a few years of operating cost savings.

In summary, a nice fossil fuel car should be about $40,000 and a nice BEV should be about $45,000

A Prius Prime nicely equipped sells for less than $45,000.

 

[KenH]

This could be a helpful breakthrough technology. Direct lithium extraction, or DLE: From Arkansas to Argentina, Lithium Boom Players Shift Focus To Faster Production

 

[JonC]

Why do these folks bother to post one obvious falsehood after another? Did this assertion come with a quote as to using coal? Nope. Why has this thread been flooded with falsehoods?

You are assuming things you disagree with are false. And then you are complaining that there are no sources.

Where are your sources?

Provide sources showing that lithium mining is environmentally friendly. Show where it is mined without destroying the area, without air pollution, and without producing heavy metals.



Edit: BTW....I'm not opposed to EV's. I actually like them. I am opposed to highlighting the issues with combustion engines while ignoring issues with EV's (and vice versa).

I am also opposed to paying to make EV's affordable. Stop the government incentives and let the market work.

 

[KenH]

But BEV's cost about $10,000 more than similar fossil fueled vehicles.

$5,000-10,000 is a lot of money for those not in the upper 10% of income.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So you believe in child slave labor, and exploiting people of color. Anyone can make "non-germane strawman arguments" especially dimwits.

LFP batteries have no colbalt! None! Zip! Nada!

A long time ago, my grandfather went to the anthracite coal mines at 9 yo to help pay the bills, working hard labor, tunneling in places a grown man couldn’t and hauling out coal and picking out slate. However our country progressed to a country with child labor laws, sadly too late for him. My point is that any labor jobs in the USA are far better than many other places that misuse children. Wouldn’t it be better to limit these mining initiatives to the USA where laborers are treated humanely?

 

[Van]

True .... I was going off EV's in general. The lithium environmental concerns remain, but the colbalt part doesn't apply to your battery.

The main mineral in your battery is phosphate. We know lithium poses environmental hazards (particularly heavy metals) in addition to mining in general.

Lithium is not a heavy metal.
Iron is heavy as to density but is non-toxic.
Phospate is not a metal.

Yes, we can people who object to any sort of mining, but we can find others who prefer sustainable solar power coupled with LFP storage batteries.

 

[Van]

$5,000-10,000 is a lot of money for those not in the upper 10% of income.

Did you see the UAW demands? What if cars would cost 40% less? Fewer people making few part vehicles.

 

[JonC]

The old avalanche of non-germane claims approach.

"...mining lithium is not environmentally friendly." The use of undefined claims does not move the ball. Anyone can claim any mining, say of copper or iron, is not environmentally friendly.​

The problem is that I provided sources explaining why mining lithium is not environmentally friendly. I even included peer reviewed articles.

Here are some peer reviewed articles to add to the sources already listed:

Environmental impact of direct lithium extraction from brines | Nature Reviews Earth & Environment

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02646811.2020.1754596

Environmental impact of direct lithium extraction from brines | Nature Reviews Earth & Environment

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._mineral_extraction_Towards_a_research_agenda

Your post above is based on willful ignorance of the sources provided (it is pretending they don't exist).

 

[JonC]

Lithium is not a heavy metal.
Iron is heavy as to density but is non-toxic.
Phospate is not a metal.

Yes, we can people who object to any sort of mining, but we can find others who prefer sustainable solar power coupled with LFP storage batteries.

I know lithium is not a heavy metal. I never claimed it was. I know phosphate is not a heavy metal. I never claimed it was.

The peer reviewed articles I provided mentioned the release of heavy metals into the environment.

 

[JonC]

@Van

Do you support the DOE requiring that it's facilities move towards 100% EV's while also requiring that no EV enter the gate of nuclear sites?

I ask because our tax dollars are being used to lease (these are GSA vehicles) EV's that we cannot use, except for political aesthetics.

 

[Van]

You are assuming things you disagree with are false. And then you are complaining that there are no sources.

Where are your sources?

Provide sources showing that lithium mining is environmentally friendly. Show where it is mined without destroying the area, without air pollution, and without producing heavy metals.

Edit: BTW....I'm not opposed to EV's. I actually like them. I am opposed to highlighting the issues with combustion engines while ignoring issues with EV's (and vice versa).

I am also opposed to paying to make EV's affordable. Stop the government incentives and let the market work.

I do not assume things I disagree with are false, I research them and follow the facts.
Here is what was asserted:

Oh then you can use coal to make the country energy independent as we have the most rich reserves of any country on the globe, we just need to filter it properly. That would solve many problems and provide jobs to Americans. Biden should know that coming from Scranton PA

Do I need to have a source to "know" I do not want to use more coal to achieve energy independence? Nope

I asked for you to define "environmentally friendly" but instead you ask me to provide proof that your claim was false. Fiddlesticks

Lithium mining like all mining can be claimed to be not "environmentally friendly." So what? The term is undefined. LFP batteries do not contain "lead, cobalt, nickel," or other toxic heavy metals.​

 

[JonC]

I do not assume things I disagree with are false, I research them and follow the facts.
Here is what was asserted:

Oh then you can use coal to make the country energy independent as we have the most rich reserves of any country on the globe, we just need to filter it properly. That would solve many problems and provide jobs to Americans. Biden should know that coming from Scranton PA

Do I need to have a source to "know" I do not want to use more coal to achieve energy independence? Nope

I asked for you to define "environmentally friendly" but instead you ask me to provide proof that your claim was false. Fiddlesticks

Lithium mining like all mining can be claimed to be not "environmentally friendly." So what? The term is undefined. LFP batteries do not contain "lead, cobalt, nickel," or other toxic heavy metals.​

No. Your complaint was that my post was not applicable.

I know that LFP batteries do not contain lead, cobalt or nickel.

I know LFP batteries do not contain heavy metals


I did not claim otherwise.

I provided peer reviewed articles addressing the environmental impact of lithium mining....to include the release of heavy metals into the environment among other environmental problems.

Your argument is not with me but with those peer reviewed articles.

I agree that Lithium mining is not environmentally friendly. It is always a case of weighing benefits against problems.

I support EV's. I don't support ignorance or political incentives.

 

[Van]

The problem is that I provided sources explaining why mining lithium is not environmentally friendly. I even included peer reviewed articles.

Here are some peer reviewed articles to add to the sources already listed:

Environmental impact of direct lithium extraction from brines | Nature Reviews Earth & Environment

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02646811.2020.1754596

Environmental impact of direct lithium extraction from brines | Nature Reviews Earth & Environment

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._mineral_extraction_Towards_a_research_agenda

Your post above is based on willful ignorance of the sources provided (it is pretending they don't exist).

1) You do not know whether or not my post is based on willful ignorance. You are not a mind reader. Thus an obvious falsehood.
2) You have still not provided reasons for saying lithium mining is not environmentally friendly.
3) You tried to disparage LFP battery EVs by "guilt by association." They do not contain heavy metals.

"The main mineral in your battery is phosphate. We know lithium poses environmental hazards (particularly heavy metals) in addition to mining in general."​

4) I do not support mandates for EV usage, or mandates blocking fossil fuel usage. To assert such nonsense is not useful.
5) To restate for the umpteenth time,

I support a market driven transition to BEV's powered by LFP batteries produced in the USA without support from China.​

 

[canadyjd]

So you believe in child slave labor, and exploiting people of color. Anyone can make "non-germane strawman arguments" especially dimwits.

LFP batteries have no colbalt! None! Zip! Nada!

What I was about child slave labor in mining for materials for EV batteries is well documented.

Any person buying, driving an EV supports child slave labor, whether they know it or not and whether they deny it or not

peace to you

 

[Van]

What I was about child slave labor in mining for materials for EV batteries is well documented.

Any person buying, driving an EV supports child slave labor, whether they know it or not and whether they deny it or not

peace to you

Will anybody address BEV's powered by LFP batteries. Yet I am charged with "willful ignorance." Go figure...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What I was about child slave labor in mining for materials for EV batteries is well documented.

Any person buying, driving an EV supports child slave labor, whether they know it or not and whether they deny it or not

peace to you

… thermal runaway; watch them burn for hours & hours & hours. How much chemical toxins are released into the atmosphere when the barge on the Jersey coast went up…. That fire lasted for days.

 

[JonC]

1) You do not know whether or not my post is based on willful ignorance. You are not a mind reader. Thus an obvious falsehood.
2) You have still not provided reasons for saying lithium mining is not environmentally friendly.
3)

"The main mineral in your battery is phosphate. We know lithium poses environmental hazards (particularly heavy metals) in addition to mining in general."​

4) I do not support mandates for EV usage, or mandates blocking fossil fuel usage. To assert such nonsense is not useful.
5) To restate for the umpteenth time,

I support a market driven transition to BEV's powered by LFP batteries produced in the USA without support from China.​

I do know that your post is based on willful ignorance.

The reason I know this is you have repeatedly stated that my posts supplying peer reviewed articles citing studies do not provide sources.

I grant that the science could always be wrong (given the studies, to include lithium mining in Nevada and phosphate mining in Florida, I can't see a winning counter claim).

The problem is not the validity of the peer reviewed articles or studies but your repeated claim they didn't not exist.

That is willful ignorance. Period.

Your post here proves it with your second point.

You state that I "have still not provided reasons for saying lithium mining is not environmentally friendly".

Yet I provided several peer reviewed articles citing several studies stating that lithium mining is not currently environmentally friendly and encouraging new methods be developed.

I also provided articles stating that phosphorus mining is not environmentally friendly (I grant that no mining is strictly environmentally friendly). But the nature of phosphorus mining is less environmentally friendly than many other types (look at issues in Florida and Middle Tennessee).

Then you falsely state I "tried to disparage LFP battery EVs by "guilt by association." They do not contain heavy metals."

I never claimed LFP batteries contain heavy metals. The scientists in the articles said that the process of obtaining lithium to use in LFP batteries produces heavy metals which will s an environmental hazard and encouraged research to diminish the negative effect on the environment.


You are being willfully ignorant. You are dismissing the words of those scientists as being my words.

I am not a scientist or an environmentalist. I am just citing their reports and articles.

 

[JonC]

Will anybody address BEV's powered by LFP batteries. Yet I am charged with "willful ignorance." Go figure...

Uh.....there are several peer reviewed articles addressing the mining for lithium for use specifically in LFP batteries as an environmental hazard and encouraging better methods be developed.

Why do you keep asking for what has already been provided?

Read those articles (the ones specifically dealing with LFP batteries) and then call up those scientists and tell them why they are wrong.

But stop pretending they were not posted.