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5 historical realities against an early papacy

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ps104_33, Aug 22, 2002.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

    Sep 3, 2001
    Likes Received:
    1. There are no explicit references to a papacy in the earliest centuries of Christianity.

    2. Many of the words and actions of the earliest Christians contradict the concept of a papacy.

    3. The earliest non-Christian sources who commented on Christianity said nothing about a papacy.

    4. The earliest interpretations of the scripture passages most often cited in favor of a papacy are all non-papal.

    5. Men like Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata), Cyprian (On the Unity of the Church), and Augustine (Sermons) wrote entire treatises relating to church government and Christian doctrine without mentioning a papacy.

    [Note: I edited topic title]

    [ August 28, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: webmaster ]
  2. SolaScriptura

    SolaScriptura New Member

    May 10, 2002
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  3. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    Panorama of Papal Authority
    From the earliest times until 1000 A.D., from original sources.

    First Century (1 - 100 AD)
    Jesus Christ
    His very words, recorded in the Gospel of Matthew.
    15: He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16: And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17: And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    -- Matthew 16:15-19 (KJV)



    Jesus Christ
    His very words, recorded by the Gospel of John
    15: So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
    16: He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
    17: He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
    18: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
    19: This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
    -- John 21:15-19 (KJV)



    Jesus Christ
    His very words, recorded in the Gospel of Luke.
    26: But ye shall not be sobut he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
    27: For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
    28: Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
    29: And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
    30: That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    31: And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
    32: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    -- Luke 22:27-32 (KJV)



    St. Peter I
    Pope, circa 33 A.D. - 67-68 A.D. Book of Acts
    9: On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
    10: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
    11: And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
    12: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
    13: And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
    14: But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
    15: And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
    16: This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
    17: Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
    18: And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
    19: While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
    20: Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
    21: Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
    22: And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
    23: Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
    24: And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
    25: And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
    26: But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
    27: And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
    28: And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
    29: Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
    30: And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
    31: And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
    32: Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
    33: Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
    34: Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
    36: The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
    37: That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
    38: How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
    39: And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
    40: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
    41: Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
    42: And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
    43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    44: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46: For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    47: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord . . .
    -- Acts 10:9-48 (KJV)

    Second Century (100 - 200 AD)
    St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch
    Letter to the Romans, 110 A.D.
    "Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High God the Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who formed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed most holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, and is possessed of the Spirit, which I also salute in the name of Almighty God, and of Jesus Christ His Son; to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments, who are filled inseparably with all the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, [I wish] abundance of happiness unblameably, in God, even the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
    Coxe, (Roberts & Donaldson), Ed., Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, p. 73 (Hendrickson 1999). All bracketed text inserted by original translators and editors.



    St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons
    Against Heresies, 180 A.D.
    "Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
    Coxe, (Roberts & Donaldson), Ed., Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, pp. 415-416 (Hendrickson 1999). All bracketed text inserted by original translators and editors.

    Third Century (200 - 300 AD)
    St. Cornelius I
    Pope, 251-253 A.D., Epistle Quantam solicitudinem to Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage
    "We know that CORNELIUS, bishop of themost holy Catholic Church, was chosen by God almighty and by Christ our Lord; we confess our error; we have suffered imposture; we have been deceived by treachery and captious loquacity; for although we seemed to have held, as it were, a certain communication with a schismatical and heretical man, nevertheless our heart has always been in the Church; for we are not ignorant that there is one God and that there is one Lord Jesus Christ, whom we have confessed, that there is one Holy Spirit and that there ought to be one bishop in the Catholic Church."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 44, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 21. Denzinger's note reads as follows: "This profession of faith by the schismatics Maximus, Urban, Sidonius, and others was offered to CORNELIUS and accepted by him."

    Fourth Century (300 - 400 AD)
    St. Siricius
    Pope, 384-398 A.D., Epistle Directa ad decessorem to Himerius, Bishop of Terracina, February 10, 385 A.D.
    " . . . To your inquiry we do not deny a legal reply, because we, upon whom greater zeal for the Christian religion is incumbent than upon the whole body, out of consideration for our office do not have the liberty to dissimulate, nor to remain silent. We carry the weight of all who are burdened; nay rather the blessed apostle PETER bears these in us, who, as we trust, protects us in all maters of his administration, and guards his heirs."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 87, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 36-37



    Council of Serdica
    343-344 A.D
    "Caius the bishop said . . . But if any bishop hs been judged in some case, so that a new trial may be given, if it seems good to you, let us honor the memory of the most holy Apostle, PETER either let those who have examined the case or the bishops who reside in the next province write to the Roman bishop; and if he should judge that the judicial investigation ought to be repeated, let it be repeated, and let him appoint judges. But if he should determine that the case is such, that what has been finished should not be reopened, his decree shall be confirmed. Is this agreeable to all? The synod replied: It is agreeable. . . . .
    * * *
    For this will seem to be best and most fitting indeed, if the priests from each and every province refer to the head, that is, to the chair of PETER the apostle.
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 57b & 57e, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 27-30. The second selection is the epistle Quod Semper by which the synod transmitted its acts to St. Julius I, Pope 337-352 A.D.



    St. Ambrose
    Bishop of Milan, 374-397 A.D.; Epistle, To Emperor Gratian, 381 A.D.
    ""Your grace must be besought not to permit any disturbance of the Roman Church, the head of the whole Roman World and of the most holy faith of the Apostles, for from thence flow out to all the bonds of sacred communion."
    -- Winter, St. Peter and the Popes, p. 160 (Helicon, 1960) Courtesy of Corunum Apologetics Website. Schaaf & Wace list this Epistle (XI) among Ambrose's extant letters, but do not include it in translation. They describe the circumstances as follows: "[Letters] 9-12. Letters concerning the Council of Aquileia, held A.D. 381, to the bishops of the provinces of Gaul, to the Emperor Gratian and his colleagues. Two men, Palladius and Secundianus, held Arian opinions, and the former appears to have asked Gratian to convoke a General Council, pleading that he was unjustly condemned. St. Ambrose pointed out to the Emperor that such a question . . . could be settled by a local council in Italy; and as a result, by the Emperor's mandate, a council of Italian bishops met at Aquileia, other bishops having also permission to attend. Palladius and Secundianus were condemned, and these letters have reference to the proceedings . . . They were probably written by St. Ambrose in the name of the Acouncil, A.D. 381." Schaaf & Wace, Eds., Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Second Series), "Prolegomena to St. Ambrose," p. xx (Hendrickson, 1995).

    Fifth Century (400 - 500 AD)
    Council of Ephesus
    Speech of Philip, Papal Legate, 431 A.D.
    "No one doubts, but rather it has been known to all generations, that the holy and most blessed Peter, chief and head of the Apostles, the pillar of the faith, the foundation stone of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that the power of binding and loosing sins was given to him, who up to this moment and always lives in his successors, and judges."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 112, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 49-50



    St. Zosimus
    Pope, 417-418 A.D., Epistle Quamvis Patrum traditio to the African Bishops, March 21, 418 A.D.
    "Although the tradition of the Fathers has attributed such great authority to the Apostolic See that no one would dare to disagree wholly with its judgment, and it has always preserved this [judgment] by canons and rules, and current ecclesiastical discipline up to this time by its laws pay the reverence which is due to the name of PETER, from whom it has itself descended . . . ; since therefore PETER the head is of such great authority and he has confirmed the subsequent endeavors of all our ancestors, so that the Roman Church is fortified . . . by human as well as by divine laws, and it does not escape you that we rule its place and also hold power of the name itself, nevertheless you know, dearest brethren, and as priests you ought to know, although we have such great authority that no one can dare to retract from our decision, yet we have done nothing which we have not voluntarily referred to your notice by letters . . . not because we did not know what ought to be done, or would do anything which by going against the advantage of the Church, would be displeasing . . . "
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 109, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 47



    St. Boniface I
    Pope, 418-422 A.D., Epistle Retro maioribus tuis to Rufus, Bishop of Thessaly, March 11, 422 A.D
    " . . . To the Synod [of Corinth] . . . we have directed such writings that all the bretheren may know . . . that there must be no withdrawal from our judgment. For it has never been allowed that that be discussed again which has once been decided by the Apostolic See."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 110, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 48



    St. Leo (the Great)
    Pope, 440-461 A.D., Third Sermon, 441 A.D.
    "The dispensation of Truth therefore abides, and the blessed Peter persevering in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church which he undertook. For he was ordained before the rest in such a way that from his being called Rock, from his being pronounced the Foundation, from his being constituted the Doorkeeper of the kingdom of heaven, from his being set as the Umpire to bind and to loose, whose judgments shall retain their validity in heaven, from all these mystical titles we might know the nature of his association with Christ. And still to-day he more fully and effectually performs what is entrusted to him, and carries out every part of his duty and charge in Him and with Him, through Whom he has been glorified. And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See. For this, dearly beloved, was gained by that confession, which, inspired and in the Apostle's heart by God the Father, transcended all the uncertainty of human opinions, and was endued with the firmness of a rock, which no assaults could shake. For throughout the Church Peter daily says, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and every tongue which confesses the Lord, accepts the instruction his voice conveys. This Faith conquers the devil, and breaks the bonds of his prisoners. It uproots us from this earth and plants us in heaven, and the gates of Hades cannot prevail against it. For with such solidity is it endued by God that the depravity of heretics cannot mar it nor the unbelief of heathen overcome it."
    Schaaf & Wace, Eds., Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Second Series), Vol. 12, p. 117 (Hendrickson 1995).

    Sixth Century (500 - 600 A.D.)
    St. Hormisdas
    Pope, 514-523 A.D., Libellus professionis fidei added to the epistle Inter ea quae
    to the bishops of Spain, April 2, 517 A.D.
    "[Our] first safety is to guard the rule of the right faith and to deviate in no wise from the ordinances of th Fathers; because we cannot pass over the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ who said: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church" . . . These [words] which were spoken, are proved by the effects of the deeds, because in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved without stain. Desiring not to be separated from this hope and faith and following the ordinances of the Fathers, we anathematize all heresies . . . . Moreover, we accept and approve all letters of blessed LEO the Pope, which he wrote regarding the Christian religion, just as we said before, following the Apostolic See in all things, and extolling all its ordinances. And, therefore, I hope that I may merit to be in the one communion with you, which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which there is the whole and the true and the perfect solidity of the Christian religion, promising that in th efuture the names of those separated from communion of the Catholic Church, that is, those not agreeing with the Apostolic See, shall not be read during the sacred mysteries . . . . I have with my own hand signed this profession of mine, and to you, HORMISDAS, the holy and venerable Pope of the City of Rome, I have directed it."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 171-72, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 73-74. Denzinger's notes state "This rule of faith, after it was proposed to the bishops who had been sharers of the Acacian schism, was subscribed to by all the bishops of the Orient, by the emperor Justinian, and by the Constantinopolitan patricharchs Epiphanus, John, Menna, and finally in the eighth ecumenical Synod (Constantinople IV) . . . by the Greek and Latin Fathers . . . The formula . . . is that which Hormisdas proposed to the Bishops of Spain for receiving the oriental clerics into communion with the Church."

    Seventh Century (600 - 700 A.D.)
    Synod of Bishops, Cyprus
    Letter to Pope Theodore I, May 29, 643 A.D.
    "Christ, our God, has instituted your Apostolic chair, O holy head, as a God-fixed and immovable foundation. For thou, as truly spake the Divine Word, art Peter, and upon thy foundation the pillars of the Church are fixed, and to thee He committed the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. He ordered thee to bind and loose with authority on earth and in heaven. Thou art set as the destroyer of profane heresies, as Coryphæus and leader of the orthodox and unsullied Faith. Despise not then, Father, the Faith of our Fathers, tossed by waves and imperilled; disperse the rule of the foolish with the light of thy divine knowledge, O most holy. Destroy the blasphemies and insolence of the new heretics with their novel expressions. For nothing is wanting to your orthodox and pious definition and tradition for the augmentation of the Faith amongst us. For we — O inspired one, you who hold converse with the holy Apostles and sit with them — believe and confess from of old since our very swaddling clothes, teaching according to the holy and God-fearing Pope Leo, and declaring that 'each nature works with the communion of the other what is proper to it . . .'"
    -- Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, "Monothelitism & Monothelites", p. 506 (1913). Other sources include J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10, p. 914.

    Eighth Century (700 - 800 A.D.)
    Hadrian I
    Pope, 772-795 A.D., Epistle, Pastoralibus Curis to the Patriarch Tarasius, 785 A.D.
    "Let that false assembly, which without the Apostolic See . . . was held contrary to the traditions of the venerable fathers against the divine images, be declared anathema in the presence of our delegates, and let the word of our Lord Jesus Christ be fulfilled, that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against her' and again: ‘Thou art Peter . . . .' whose throne holding the first place in all the world shines forth and holds its place as the head of the whole Church of God."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 298, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 119-120. Denzinger notes, "This Greek version (from which the Latin version has been made) was read at the Council of Nicea II."

    Ninth Century (800 - 900 A.D.)
    St. Nicholas I
    Pope, 858 - 867 A.D., Proceedings of the Roman Council, 860 A.D.
    "If anyone condemns dogmas, mandates, interdicts, sanctions or decrees, promulgated by the one presiding in the Apostolic See, for the Catholic faith, for the correction of the faithful, for the emendation of criminals, either by an interdict of threatning or of future ills, let him be anathema."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 326, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 132


    St. Nicholas I
    Pope, 858-867 A.D.; from the Epistle Proposueramus quidem to Michael the Emperor, 865 A.D.
    ". . . Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by religious, nor by the people will the judge be judged . . . . ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone'
    . . . Where have you ever read that your former rulers were present in synodal meetings, unless perchance in those in which (matters) concerning faith were discussed, which is universal, which is common to all, which pertains not only to the clergy but even to the laity and certainly to all Christians? . . . The greater the complaint which is brought to the judgment of a more powerful authority, so much the higher authority must be sought, until gradually it comes to this See, whose cause either from itself, as the merits of the matters demand, is changed for the better or is left without question to the will of God alone.
    Furthermore if you have not heard us, it remains for you to be with us of necessity, such as our Lord Jesus Christ has commanded those to be considered, who disdained to hear the Church of God, especially since the privileges of the Roman Church, build on Blessed Peter by the word of Christ, deposited in the Church herself, observed in ancient times and celebrated by the sacred universal Synods, and venerated jointly by the entire Church, can by no means be diminished, by no means infringed upon, by no means changed; for the foundation which God has established, no human effort has the power to destroy and what God has determined, remains firm and strong . . . . Thus the privileges granted to this holy Church by Christ, not given b y the Synod, but now only celebrated and venerated . . .
    Since, according to the canons, where there is greater authority, the judgment of the inferiors must be brought to it to be annulled, or to be substantiated, certainly it is evidence that the judgment of the Apostolic See, of whose authority there is none greater, is to be refused by no one. If indeed they wish the canon to be appealed to any part of the world; from it, however, no one may be permitted to appeal . . . We do not deny that the opinion of this See can be changed for the better, when either something shall have been stealthily snatched from it, or by the very consideration of age or time, or by a dispensation of grave necessity, it shall have decided to regulate something. We beseech you, however, never question the judgment of the Church of God; that indeed bears no prejudgment on your power, since it begs eternal divinity for its own stability, and it beseeches in constant prayer for your well being and eternal salvation. Do not usurp the things that belong to it; do not wish to snatch away that which has been intrusted to it alone, knowing that without doubt every administrator of mundane affairs ought to be removed from sacred affairs, just as it is proper that no one from the group of clergy and those militant for God be implicated in any secular affairs. Finally, we are completely without knowledge of how those to whom it has been intrusted only to be in charge of human affairs presume to judge concerning those through whom divine affairs are ministered. These things existed before the coming of Christ, so that some figuratively lived at one and the same time as kings and priests; this, sacred history shows how holy Melchizedek was, and this the devil imitated in his members, since he always hastens to assume for himself in a tyrannical spirit the things which are becoming to the divine culture, so that these pagan emperors were also called supreme pontiffs. But when it came to the same true king and pontiff, neither has He, the emperor, voluntarily taken to himself the rights of the pontiff, nor as pontiff has He usurped the name of the emperor. Since the name ‘mediator of God and man, the man Christ Jesus' [1 Timothy 2:5] "by His own acts and distinct dignities, has so decreed the duties of each power, wishing His own to be lifted up by His salutary humility, not to be submerged again by human pride, so that Christian rulers for eternal life may need pontiffs, and that pontiffs may use imperial laws only for the course of temporal affairs; because spiritual action differs from carnal efforts.
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 330-333, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 132-134. A note to the lead quotation states that the words are alleged to be those of St. Sylvester who reigned from 314 - 335 A.D.
    From 1,000 A.D. until the present, from original sources.
  4. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    Panorama of Papal Authority continued.....

    Eleventh Century (1000 - 1100 A.D.)
    St. Leo IX
    Pope, 1049 - 1054 A.D., Epistle, In terra pax hominibus
    to Michael Cerularius & Leo of Achrida, September 2, 1053 A.D.
    The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter or Cephas, the son of John who first was called Simon, because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome; thus Truth itself promises, through whom are true, whatsoever things are true: ‘The gates of hell wil not prevail against it.' The same Son declares that He obtained the effect of this promise from the Father by prayers, by saying to Peter: ‘Simon, behold Satan, etc.' [Luke 23:31] Therefore, will there be anyone so foolish as to dare to regard His prayer as in anyway vain whose being willing is being able? By the See of the chief of the Apostles, namely by the Roman Church, through the same Peter, as well as through his successors,have not the comments of all the heretics been disapproved, rejected, and overcome, and the hearts of the brethren in the faith of Peter which so far neither has failed, nor up to the end will faill, been strengthened? . . . . As the hinge while remaining immovable opens and closes the door, so Peter and his successors have free judgment over all the Church, since no one should remove their status because ‘the highest See is judged by no one.'
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 351-53 , trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 142-43. The quote in the last sentence refers to the Epistle Proposueramus quidem to Michael, Byzantine Emperor written by Pope St. Nicholas I in 865 A.D., which states, "Neither by Augustus, nor by all the clergy, nor by relgious, nor by the people will the judge be judged . . . ‘The first seat will not be judged by anyone.'", which is found Id. 330, p. 132. A note to that reference states that the words are alleged to be those of St. Sylvester who reigned from 314 - 335 A.D.

    Twelfth Century (1100 - 1200 A.D.)
    Lateran Council
    Formula prescribed for all the cities of the Eastern Church, 1102 A.D.
    I declare anathema every heresy and especially that one which disturbs the position of the present Church, which teaches and declares that ex-communication is to be despised and that the restrictions of the Church are to be cast aside. Moreover, I promise obedience to Paschal, the supreme Pontiff of the Apostolic See, and to his successors under the testimony of Christ and the Church, affirming what the holy and universal Church affirms and condemning what she condemns."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 357-53 , trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 145.

    Thirteenth Century (1200 - 1300 A.D.)
    Council of Lyons II
    Profession of Faith of Michael Palaeologus, (Variant Readings), 1274 A.D.
    ". . . Also this same holy Roman Church holds the highest and complete primacy and spiritual power over the universal Catholic Church which she truly and humbly recognizes herself to have received with fullness of power from the Lord Himself in Blessed Peter, the chief or head of the Apostles whose successor is the Roman Pontiff. And just as to defend the truth of Faith she is held before all other things, so if any questions shall arise regarding faith they ought to be defined by her judgment. And to her anyone burdened with affairs pertaining to the ecclesiastical world can appeal; and in all cases looking forward to an ecclesiastical examination, recourse can be had to her judgment, and all churches are subject to her; their prelates give obedience and reverence to her. In her, moreover, such a plenitude of power rests that she receives the other churches to a share of her solicitude, of which many patriarchal churches the same Roman Church has honored in a special way by different privileges -- its own prerogative being observed and preserved both in general Councils and in other places."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 466, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 185. This selection is from "Variant Readings" of the Profession of Faith made by Byzantine Emperor Michael Palaeologus. Pope Clement IV wrote the Profession for the Emperor to make at the Council, and this selection was also part of the profession. Philip Hughes, The Church in Crisis: History of the General Councils, 350 - 1870, pp. 241-42 (Hanover/Doubleday, 1961).

    Fourteenth Century (1300 - 1400 A.D.)
    Boniface VIII
    Pope, 1294-1303 A.D., From the bull Unam Sanctam, November 18, 1302.
    "With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming"One is my dove, my perfect one. One she is of her mother, the chosen of her that bor her" [Song of Songs, 6:8]; which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" [Ephesians, 4:5]. Certainly Noe had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect on one cubit had one ruler and guide, namely Noe, outside which we read all living things on the earth were destroyed. Moreover this we venerate and this alone, the Lord in the prophet saying‘Deliver, O God,' my soul from the sword; my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Psalms, 21:21]. For in behalf of the sou, that is, in behalf of himself, the heat itself and the body he prayed at the same time, which body he called the "only one" namely, the Church, because of the unity of the spouse, the faith, the sacraments, and the charity of the Church. This is that "seamless tunic" of the Lord [John, 19:23], which was not cut, but came forth by chance. Therefore, of the one and only Church (there is) one body, one head, not two heads as a monster, namely Christ and Peter, the Vicar of Christ and the successor of Peter, the Lord Himself saying to Peter"Feed my sheep" [John, 21:17]. He said "My," and generally, not individually these or those, through which it is understood that He entrusted all to him. If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they were not entrusted to Peter and his successors, of necessity let them confess that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says in John "to be one flock and one Shepherd." [John, 10:16]
    And we are taught by evangelical words that in this power of his are two swords, namely spiritual and temporal . . . Therefore, each is in the power of the Church, that is, a spiritual and a material sword. But the latter, indeed, must be exercised for the Church, the former by the Church. The former (by the hand) of the priest, the latter by the hand of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest. For it is necessary that a sword be under a sword and that temporal authority be subject to a spiritual power . . . It is necessary that we confess the more clearly that spiritual power precedes and earthly power both more clearly that spiritual power precedes any earthly power both in dignity and nobility, as spiritual matters themselves excel the temporal. . . . For, as truth testifies, spiritual power has to establish earthly power, and to judge if it was not good . . . . Therefore, if earthly power deviates, it will be judged by spiritual power; but if a lesser spiritual deviates, by its superior; but if the supreme (spiritual power deviates), it can be judged by God alone, not by man, as the Apostle testifies"The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is judged by no one." [1 Corinthians, 2:15]. But this authority, although it is given to man and is exercised by man, is not human, but rather divine, and has been given by the divine Word to Peter himself and to his successors in him, whom the Lord acknowledged an established rock, when he said to Peter himself‘Whatsoever you shall bind,' etc. [Matthew, 16:19]. Therefore, ‘whosoever resists this power so ordained by God, resists the order of God' [cf. Romans, 13:2], unless as a Manichean he imagines that there are two beginnings, which we judge false and heretical, because, as Moses testifies, not "in the beginnings" but "in the beginning God created the heaven and earth" [cf., Genesis 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 469, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 187.

    Fifteenth Century (1400 - 1500 A.D.)
    Council of Florence / Eugenius IV
    Council held, 1438-1445 A.D.; Eugenius IV Pope, 1431-1447 A.D.; from the Bull, Laetentur coeli, July 6, 1439
    "We likewise define that the holy Apostolic See, and the Roman Pontiff, hold the primacy throughout the entire world; and that the Roman Pontiff himself is the successor of blessed Peter, the chief of the Apostles, and the true vicar of Christ, and that he is the head of the entire Church, and the father and teacher of all Christians; and that full power was given to him in blessed Peter by our Lord Jesus Christ, to feed, rule, and govern the universal Church; just as is contained in the acts of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 694, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 220.


    Pius II
    Pope, 1458-1464 A.D.; from the Bull, Execrabilis January 18, 1460
    "The execrable and hitherto unheard of abuse has grown up in our day, that certain persons, imbued with the spirit of rebellion, and not from a desire to secure a better judgment, but to escape the punishment of some offense which they have committed, presume to appeal to a future council from the Roman Pontiff, the vicar of Jesus Christ, to whom in the person of the blessed PETER was said: ‘Feed my sheep,' [John 21:17] "and, ‘Whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven.' [Matt. 16:19] ". . . . Wishing therefore to expel this pestiferous poison far from the Church of Christ and to care for the salvation of the flock entrusted to us, and to remove every cause of offense from the fold of our Savior . . . we condemn all such appeals and disprove them as erroneous and detestable.
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 717, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 232.

    Sixteenth Century (1500 - 1600 A.D.)
    Leo X
    Pope, 1513-1521 A.D.; from the Bull, Pastor Aeternus, December 19, 1516
    "Nor should this move us, that the sanction itself, and the things contained in it were proclaimed in the Council of Basle . . . since all these acts were made after the translation of that same Council of Basle from the place of the assembly at Basle, and therefore could have no weight, since it is clearly established that the Roman Pontiff alone, possessing as it were authority over all Councils, has full right and power of proclaiming Councils, or transferring and dissolving them, not only according to the testimony of Sacred Scripture, from the words of the holy Fathers and even of other Roman Pontiffs, of our predecessors, and from the decrees of the holy canons, but also from the particular acknowledgment of these same Councils."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 740, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 238-39.


    Council of Trent
    Held, 1545-1563 A.D.; The Doctrine on the Sacrament of Orders,
    from Session XXIII, Chapter 4, July 15, 1563
    "But since in the sacrament of orders, as also in baptism and in confirmation, a sign is imprinted . . . which can neither be effaced nor taken away, justly does the holy Synod condemn the opinion of those who assert that the priests of the New Testament have only a temporary power, and that those at one time rightly ordained can again become laymen, if they do not exercise the ministry of the word of God. But if anyone should affirm that all Christians without distinction are priests of the New Testament, or that they are all endowed among themselves with an equal spiritual power, he seems to do nothing else than disarrange the ecclesiastical hierarchy, which is ‘as an army set in array" [Song of Songs, 6:3] "just as if, contrary to the teaching of the blessed Paul, all were apostles, all prophets, all evangelists, all pastors, all doctors" [1 Corinthians 12:29, Ephesians 4:11] "Accordingly, the holy Synod declares that besides the other ecclesiastical grades, the bishops who have succeeded the Apostles, belong in a special way to this hierarchical order, and have been "placed" (as the same Apostle says) by the Holy Spirit to rule the Church of God." [Acts 20:29] "and that they are superior to priests, and administer the sacrament of confirmation, ordain ministers of the Church, and can perform many other offices over which those of an inferior order have no power. The holy Synod teaches, furthermore, that in the ordination of bishops, priests, and of other orders, the consent, call, or authority of the people, or of any secular power or magistrate is not so required for the validity of the ordination; but rather it decrees that those who are called and instituted only by the people, or by the civil power or magistrate and proceed to exercise these offices, and that those who by their own temerity take these offices upon themselves, are not ministers of the Church, but are to be regarded as "thieves and robbers, who have not entered by the door" [John 10:1] "These are the matters which in general it seemed well to the sacred Council to teach the faithful of Christ regarding the sacrament of order. It has, however, resolved to condemn the contrary in definite and appropriate canons in the following manner, so that all, making use of the rule of faith, with the assistance of Christ, may be able to recognize more easily the Catholic truth in the midst of the darkness of so many errors, and may adhere to it."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 960, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 294.


    Council of Trent / Pius IV
    Profession of Faith
    Council Held, 1545-1563 A.D.; Pope Pius IV reigned, 1559-1565.
    From the Bull Iniunctum nobis, November 13, 1565
    "I acknowledge the holy Catholic and apostolic Roman Church as the mother and teacher of all churches; and to the Roman Pontiff, the successor of the blessed Peter, chief of the Apostles and vicar of Jesus Christ, I promise and swear true obedience."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 999, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 303.

    Seventeenth Century (1600 - 1700 A.D.)
    Innocent X
    Pope, 1644-1655 A.D.; from the Decree of the Sacred Office, January 24, 1647
    "The most holy . . . has decreed and declared heretical this proposition so presented that it established an exact equality between St. PETER and St. Paul, without subordination and subjection of St. Paul to St. Peter in supreme power, and in the rule of the universal Church: ‘St. PETER and St. Paul are the two princes of the Church who form one head, or: there are two Catholic heads and supreme leaders of the Catholic Church, joined in highest unity between themselves'; or, ‘the head of the Catholic Church consists of two who are most divinely united into one'; or ‘there are two supreme pastors and guardians of the Church, who form one head only.'"
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 1091, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 315.


    Alexander VIII
    Pope, 1689-1691 A.D.; Decree of the Holy Office, December 7, 1690
    "29. Futile and many times refuted is the assertion about the authority of the Roman Pontiff being superior to that of an ecumenical Council and about his infallibility in deciding questions of faith. 30. When anyone finds a doctrine clearly established in Augustine, he can absolutely hold and teach it, disregarding any bull of the pope. . . . . [These propositions] Condemned and prohibited as rash, scandalous, evil-sounding, injurious, close to heresy, smacking of heresy, erroneous, schismatic, and heretical respectively."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 1319-20, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 340-341.

    Eighteenth Century (1700 - 1800 A.D.)
    Pius VIX
    Pope, 1775-1799 A.D.; from the brief, Super soliditate November 28, 1786
    "And since truly, as Augustine teaches, God has placed the doctrine of the truth in the chair of unity, that unfortunate writer" [Febronius] " on the contrary leaves nothing undone with which to harass and attack in every way this See of Peter, in which See the Fathers have taught with unanimous agreement that that chair was established, in which alone unity might be preserved by all; from which the rights of the venerable communion emanate to all the others; and to which it is necessary that every church and all the faithful everywhere come. he has not hesitated to call fanatic the crowd which he saw breaking forth into these words at the sight of the Pontiff: ‘He is the man who has received from God the keys of the kingdom of Heaven with the power of binding and loosing, to whom no other bishop can be made equal, from whom these very bishops receive their authority as he himself received his supreme power from God; moreover, he is the vicar of Christ, the visible head of the Church, the supreme judge of the faithful.' Could, therefore (a thing horrible to say), that voice of Christ have been fanatical, which promised" [Matt. 16:19] "Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven with the power of binding and loosing; which keys Optatus Milevitanus, following Tertullian, did not hesitate to confess that Peter alone received to be communicated to the others? Or, are so many solemn decrees of the Popes and Councils repeated so many times to be called fanatic, by which those have been condemned who denied that in blessed Peter, the prince of the Apostles, his successor, the Roman Pontiff, was established by God as the visible head of the Church and the vicar of Jesus Christ, that to him has been transmitted full power of ruling the Church, and that true obedience is due him from all who are considered Christians; and that such is the power of the primacy, which he holds by divine right, that he is superior to other bishops not only by his rank of honor but by the plenitude of his supreme power? All the more must be deplored that blind and rash temerity of the man who was eager to renew in his unfortunate book errors which have been condemned by so many decrees, who has said and insinuated indiscriminately by many ambiguities, that every bishop, no less than the pope, was called by God to govern the Church, and was endowed with no less power; that Christ gave the same power Himself to all the apostles; and that whatever some people believe is obtained and granted only by the pope, that very thing, whether it depends on consecration or ecclesiastical jurisdiction, can be obtained just as well from any bishop; that Christ wished His Church to be governed in the manner of a republic; and that, indeed, for that government there is need of a head for the good of unity, but one who does not dare to interfere in the affairs of others (bishops) who rule at the same time; nevertheless, he has the privilege of exhorting those who are negligent to the fulfillment of their duties; that the power of the primacy is contained in this one prerogative, of making up for the negligence of others, of looking after the preservation of unity by encouragement and example; that the popes have no power in another diocese except in an extraordinary case; that the pope is the head because he holds his power and strength from the Church; that the Pontiffs have made it lawful for themselves to violate the rights of bishops, to reserve to themselves absolutions, dispensations, decisions, appeals, bestowal of benefices, in a word all other duties which he enumerates one by one and derides as unjust reservations and injurious to bishops."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 1500, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 368-369.

    Nineteenth Century (1800 - 1900 A.D.)
    Pius IX
    Pope, 1846-1878; Letter of the Sacred Office to the Bishops of England, September 16,1864
    "It has been made known to the Apostolic see that some Catholic laymen and ecclesiastics have enrolled in a society to ‘procure' as they say, the unity of Christianity, established at London in the year 1857, and that already many journalistic articles have been published, which are signed by the names of Catholics approving this society, or which are shown to be the work of churchmen commending this same society.
    But certainly, I need not say what the nature of this society is, and whither it is tending; this is easily understood from the articles of the newspaper entitled THE UNION REVIEW, and from that very page on which members are invited and listed. Indeed, formed and directed by Protestants, it is animated by that spirit which expressly avows for example, that the three Christian communities, Roman Catholic, Greek-schismatic, and Anglican, however separated and divided from one another, nevertheless with equal right claim for themselves the name Catholic. Admission, therefore, into that society is open to all, wheresoever they may live, Catholics, Greek-schismatics, and Anglicans, under this condition, however, that no one is permitted to raise a question about the various forms of doctrine in which they disagree, and that it is right for each individual to follow with tranquil soul what is acceptable to his own religious creed. Indeed, the society itself indicates to all its members the prayers to be recited, and to the priests the sacrifices to be celebrated according to its own intention: namely, that the said three Christian communions, inasmuch as they, as it is alleged, together now constitute the Catholic Church, may at some time or other unite to form one body . . .
    The foundation on which this society rests is of such a nature that it makes the divine establishment of the Church of no consequence. For, it is wholly in this: that it supposes the true Church of Jesus Christ to be composed partly of the Roman Church scattered and propagated throughout the whole world, partly, indeed, of the schism of Photius, and of the Anglican heresy, to which, as well to the Roman Church ‘there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.' [Ephesians 4:5] "Surely nothing should be preferable to a Catholic man than that schisms and dissensions among Christians be torn out by the roots and that all Christians be ‘careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace' [Ephesians 4:5] " . . . But that the faithful of Christ and the clergy should pray for Christian unity under the leadership of heretics, and, what is worse, according to an intention, polluted and infected as much as possible with heresy, can in no way be tolerated. The true Church of Jesus Christ was established by divine authority, and is known by a fourfold mark, which we assert in the" [Nicene] "Creed must be believed; and each one of these marks so clings to the others that it cannot be separated from them; hence it happens that the Church which truly is, and is called Catholic should at the same time shine with the prerogatives of unity, sanctity, and apostolic succession. Therefore, the Catholic Church alone is conspicuous and perfect in the unity of the whole world and of all nations, particularly int hat unity whose beginning, root, and unfailing origin are that supreme authority and ‘higher principality' of blessed PETER, the prince of the Apostles, and of his successors in the Roman Chair. No other Church is Catholic except the one which, founded on the one PETER, grows into one "body compacted and fitly joined together" [Ephesians 4:16] "in the unity of faith and charity . . . .
    Therefore, the faithful should especially shun this London society, because those sympathizing with it favor indifferentism and engender scandal."
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 1685-1687, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 428-429.


    Vatican Council I / Pius IX
    Council Held, 1869-70; Pius IX Pope 1846-1878;
    Dogmatic Constitution I on the Church of Christ, Session IV July 18, 1870
    "The eternal Pastor and Bishop of our souls, [1 Peter 2:25] "in order to render the saving work of redemption perennial, willed to build a holy Church, in which, as in the house of the living God, all the faithful might be contained by the bond of one faith and charity. Therefore, before His glory was made manifest, He asked the Father, not only for the Apostles but also for those who would believe through their word in Him, that all might be one, just as the Son Himself and the Father are one" [John 17:20] "Thus, then, as He sent the apostles, whom He had selected from the world for Himself, as He himself had been sent by the Father," [John 20:21] "so in His Church He wished the pastors and doctors to be ‘even unto the consummation of the world." [Matt. 28:20] "But, that the episcopacy itself might be one and undivided, and that the entire multitude of the faithful through priests closely connected with one another might be preserved in the unity of faith and communion, placing the blessed Peter over the other apostles He established in him the perpetual principle and visible foundation of both unities, upon whose strength the eternal temple might be erected, and the sublimity of the Church to be raised to heaven might rise from the firmness of this faith. And, since the gates of hell, to overthrow the Church, if this were possible, arise from all sides with ever greater hatred against its divinely established foundation, We judge it to be necessary for the protection, safety, and increase of the Catholic flock, with the approbation of the Council, to set forth the doctrine on the institution, perpetuity, and nature of the Sacred Apostolic Primacy, in which the strength and solidarity of the whole Church consist, to be believed and held by all the faithful, according to the ancient and continual faith of the universal Church, and to proscribe and condemn the contrary errors, so pernicious to the Lord's flock.
    Chapter 1. The Institution of Apostolic Primacy in Blessed Peter.
    So we teach and declare that according to the testimonies of the Gospel the primacy of jurisdiction over the entire Church of God was promised and was conferred immediately and directly upon the blessed Apostle Peter by Christ the Lord. For the one Simon, to whom He had before said: ‘Thou shalt be called Cephas,' [John 1:42] "after he had given forth his confession with those words: ‘Thou art Christ, Son of the living God," [Matthew 16:16] "the Lord spoke with those solemn words: ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Bar Jona; because flesh and blood hat not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; and I shall give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.' [Matthew 16:17] "And upon Simon Peter alone Jesus after His resurrection conferred the jurisdiction of the highest pastor and rector over his entire fold, saying: ‘Feed my lambs,' ‘Feed my sheep' [John 21:15] "To this teaching of Sacred Scriptures, so manifest as it has been always understood by the Catholic Church, are opposed openly the vicious opinions of those who perversely deny that the form of government of His Church was established by Christ the Lord; that to Peter alone, before the other apostles, whether individually or all together, was confided the true and proper primacy of jurisdiction by Christ; or, of those who affirm that the same primacy was not immediately or directly bestowed upon the blessed Peter himself, but upon the Church, and through this Church upon him as minister of the Church herself.
    If anyone says that the blessed Apostle Peter was not established by the Lord Christ as the chief of all the apostles, and the visible head of the whole militant Church, or, that the same received great honor but did not receive from the same our Lord Jesus Christ directly and immediately the primacy in true and proper jurisdiction: let him be anathema.
    Chapter 2. The Perpetuity of the Primacy of Blessed Peter among the Roman Pontiffs
    Moreover, what the Chief of pastors and the Great Pastor of sheep, the Lord Jesus, established in the blessed Apostle Peter for the perpetual salvation and perennial good of the Church, this by the same Author must endure always in the Church which was founded upon a rock and will endure firm until the end of the ages. Surely ‘no one has doubt, rather all ages have known that the holy and most blessed Peter, chief and head of the apostles and pillar of faith and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race; and he up to this time and always lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors, the bishops of the holy See of Rome, which was founded by him and consecrated by his blood.' [See, Fifth Century; Speech of Philip, Roman Legate, to the Council of Ephesus] "Therefore, whoever succeeds Peter in this chair, he according to the institution of Christ himself, ,holds the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. ‘Therefore the disposition of truth remains, and blessed Peter preserving in the accepted fortitude of the rock does not abandon the guidance of the Church which he has received. [See,Fifth Century; St. Leo (the Great), Third Sermon] "For this reason ‘it has always been necessary because of mightier pre-eminence for every church to come to the Church of Rome, that is those who are the faithful everywhere,' [See, Second Century; St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies] "so that in this See, from which the laws of ‘venerable communion' [See Fourth Century; St. Ambrose, Epistle to Gratian] "emanate over all, they as members associated in one head, coalesce into one bodily structure.
    If anyone then says that it is not from the institution of Christ the Lord Himself, or by divine right that the blessed Peter has perpetual successors in the primacy over the universal Church, or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in the same primacy, let him be anathema.
    Chapter 3. The Power and Manner of the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff
    Therefore, relying on the clear testimonies of Sacred Scripture, and adhering to the eloquent and manifest decisions not only of Our predecessors, the Roman Pontiffs, but also of the general Councils, We renew the definition of the Ecumenical Councils of Florence, by which all the faithful of Christ most believe ‘that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and that the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and faith, and teacher of all Christians; and that to him was handed down in blessed Peter, by our Lord Jesus Christ, full power to feed, rule, and guide the universal Church, just as is also contained in the records of the ecumenical Councils and in the sacred canons.'" [See, Fifteenth Century; Council of Florence / Eugenius IV, Laetentur coeli]
    Furthermore We teach and declare that the Roman Church, by the disposition of the Lord, holds the sovereignty of ordinary power over all others, and that this power of jurisdiction on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate; and with respect to this the pastors and the faithful of whatever right and dignity, both as separate individuals and all together, are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world, so that the Church of Christ, protected not only by the Roman Pontiff, but by the unity of the communion as well as of the profession of the same faith is one flock under the one highest shepherd. This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation.
    This power of the Supreme Pontiff is so far from interfering with that power of ordinary and immediate episcopal jurisdiction by which the bishops who, ‘placed by the Holy Spirit,' [Acts 20:28] "have succeeded to the places of the apostles, as true shepherds individually feed and rule the individual flocks assigned to them, that the same (power) is asserted according to the statement of Gregory the Great: ‘My honor is the universal honor of the Church. My honor is the solid vigor of my brothers. Then am I truly honored, when the honor due to each and everyone is not denied.' Furthermore, it follows that from the supreme power of the Roman Pontiff of ruling the universal Church, the same has the right in the exercise of this duty of his office of communicating freely with the pastors and flocks of the whole Church, so that the same can be taught and guided by him in the way of salvation. Therefore, We condemn and disapprove the opinions of those who say that this communication of the supreme head with pastors and flocks can lawfully be checked, or who make this so submissive to the secular power that they contend that whatever is established by the Apostolic See or its authority for the government of the Church has no force or value unless confirmed by an order of the secular power.
    And since the Roman Pontiff is at the head of the universal Church by the divine right of apostolic primacy, [See Eighteenth Century; Pius VI, Brief, Super soliditate] "We teach and declare also that he is the supreme judge of the faithful and that in all cases pertaining to ecclesiastical examination recourse can be had to his judgment;" [See Thirteenth Century; Council of Lyons II, Profession of Faith of Michael Palaeologus] "moreover, that the judgment of the Apostolic See, whose authority is not surpassed, is to be disclaimed by no one, nor is anyone permitted to pass judgment on its judgment." [See, Ninth Century; St. Nicholas I, Prosopueramus quidem to Michael the Emperor] "Therefore, they stray from the straight path of truth who affirm that it is permitted to appeal from the judgment of the Roman Pontiffs to an ecumenical Council, as to an authority higher than the Roman Pontiff.
    If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world; or, that he possesses only the more important parts, but not the whole plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate, or over the churches altogether and individually, and over the pastors and the faithful altogether and individually: let him be anathema.
    Chapter 4. The Infallible Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff
    Moreover, that by the very apostolic primacy which the Roman Pontiff as the successor of Peter, the chief of the Apostles, holds over the universal Church, the supreme power of the magisterium is also comprehended, this Holy See has always held, the whole experience of the Church approves, and the ecumenical Councils themselves, especially those in which the East convened with the West in a union of faith and charity, have declared. For the fathers of the fourth council of Constantinople, adhering to the ways of the former ones, published this solemn profession: ‘Our first salvation is to guard the rule of right faith . . . And since the sentiment of our Lord Jesus Christ cannot be passed over when He says: ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church,'" [Matthew 16:18] "'these words which were spoken are proven true by actual results, since in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved untainted, and holy doctrine celebrated. Desiring, then, least of all to be separated from the faith and teaching of this [Apostolic See], We hope that We may deserve to be in the one communion which the Apostolic See proclaims, in which the solidarity of the Christian religion is whole and true.'" [See, Sixth Century; Pope St. Hormisdas, Libellus professionis fidei added to the epistle Inter ea quae to the bishops of Spain] "Moreover, with the approval of the second council of Lyons, the Greeks have professed, ‘that the Holy Roman Church holds the highest and the full primacy and pre-eminence over the universal Catholic Church, which it truthfully and humbly professes it has received with plenitude of power from the Lord Himself in blessed Peter, the chief or head of the Apostles, of whom the Roman Pontiff is the successor; and, just as it is bound above others to defend the truth of faith, so, too, if any questions arise about faith, they should be defined by its judgment.'" [See Thirteenth Century; Council of Lyons II, Profession of Faith of Michael Palaeologus] "Finally, the Council of Florence has defined: ‘That the Roman Pontiff is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to it in the blessed Peter has been handed down by the Lord Jesus Christ the full power of feeling, ruling, and guiding the universal Church.'" [See, Fifteenth Century; Council of Florence, Bull Laetentur coeli]
    To satisfy this pastoral duty, our predecessors always gave tireless attention that the saving doctrine of Christ be spread among all the peoples of the earth, and with equal care they watched that, wherever it was received, it was preserved sound and pure. Therefore, the bishops of the whole world, now individually, now gathered in Synods, following a long custom of the churches and the formula of the ancient rule, referred to this Holy See those dangers particularly which emerged in the affairs of faith, that there especially the damages to faith might be repaired where faith cannot experience a failure. The Roman Pontiffs, moreover, according as the condition of the times and affairs advised, sometimes by calling ecumenical Councils or by examining the opinion of the Church spread throughout the world; sometimes by particular synods, sometimes by employing other helps which divine Providence supplied, have defined that those matters must be held which with God's help they have recognized as in agreement with Sacred Scripture and apostolic tradition. For, the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might faithfully set it forth. Indeed, all the venerable fathers ave embraced their apostolic doctrine, and the holy orthodox Doctors have venerated and followed it, knowing full well that the See of St. Peter always remains unimpaired by any error, according to the divine promise of our Lord and Savior made to the chief of His disciples: ‘I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.' [Luke 22:32]
    So, this gift of truth and a never failing faith was divinely conferred upon Peter and his successors in this chair, that they might administer their high duty for the salvation of all; that the entire flock of Christ, turned away by them from the poisonous food of error, might be nourished on the sustenance of heavenly doctrine, that with the occasion of schism removed the whole Church might be saved as one, and relying on her foundation might stay firm against the gates of hell.
    But since in this very age, in which the salutary efficacy of the apostolic duty is especially required, not a few are found who disparage its authority, We deem it most necessary to assert solemnly the prerogative which the Only-begotten Son of God deigned to enjoin with the highest pastoral office.
    And so We, adhering faithfully to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God, our Savior, the elevation of the Catholic religion and the salvation of Christian peoples, with the approbation of the sacred Council, teach and explain that the dogma has been divinely revealed: that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when carrying out the duty of the pastor and teacher of all Christians in accord with his supreme apostolic authority he explains a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, through the divine assistance promised him in blessed Peter, operates with that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished that His church be instructed in defining doctrine on faith and morals; and so such definitions of the Roman Pontiff from himself, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable.
    But if anyone presumes to contradict this definition of Ours, which may God forbid: let him be anathema.
    -- Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 1821-1840, trans. Deferrari Sources of Catholic Dogma, pp. 451-457.

    Twentieth Century (1900 - 2000 A.D.)
    Vatican Council II / Paul VI
    Council Held, 1962-1965 A.D.; Paul VI reigned 1963-1978
    Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church), November 21, 1964
    "22. Just as, by the Lord's will, St. Peter and the other apostles constitute one apostolic college, so in a similar way the Roman Pontiff as the successor of Peter, and the bishops as the successors of the apostles are joined together. The collegial nature and meaning of the episcopal order found expression in the very ancient practice by which bishops appointed the world over were linked with one another and with the Bishop of Rome by the bonds of unity, charity and peace; also, in the conciliar assemblies which made common judgments about more profound matters in decisions reflecting the views of many. The ecumenical councils held through the centuries clearly attest this collegial aspect. And it is suggested also in the practice, introduced in ancient times, of summoning several bishops to take part in the elevating of someone newly elected to the ministry of the high priesthood. Hence, one is constituted a member of the episcopal body by virtue of sacramental consecration and by hierarchical communion with the head and members of the body.
    But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is simultaneously conceived of in terms of its head, the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and without any lessening of his power of primacy over all, pastors as well as the general faithful. For in virtue of his office, that is, as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he can always exercise this power freely.
    The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in teaching authority and pastoral rule; or, rather in the episcopal order the apostolic body continues without a break. Together with its head, the Roman Pontiff, and never without this head, the episcopal order is the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church. But this power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord made Simon Peter alone the rock and key-bearer of the Church, (Matthew 16:18-19) and appointed him shepherd of the whole flock. (John 21:15).
    It is definite, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter (Matthew 16:19) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head. (Matthew 18:18; 28:16-20). This college, insofar as it is composed of many, expresses the variety and universality of the People of God, but insofar as it is assembled under one head, it expresses the unity of the flock of Christ. In it, the bishops, faithfully recognizing the primacy and pre-eminence of their head, exercise their own authority for the good of their own faithful, and indeed of the whole Church, the Holy Spirit constantly strengthening its organic structure and inner harmony.
    The supreme authority with which this college is empowered over the whole Church is exercised in a solemn way through an ecumenical council. A council is never ecumenical unless it is confirmed or at least accepted as such by the successor of Peter. It is the prerogative of the Roman Pontiff to convoke these councils, to preside over them, and to confirm them. The same collegiate power can be exercised in union with the pope by the bishops living in all parts of the world, provided that the head of the college calls them to collegiate action, or at least so approves or freely accepts the united action of the dispersed bishops, that it is made a true collegiate act. . . .
    * * *
    25. . . Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to the divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak to the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent of soul. This religious submission of will and of mind must be shown in a special way to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra. That is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known chiefly either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
    Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter's successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith.
    This infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed His Church to be endowed in defining a doctrine of faith and morals extends as far as extends the deposit of divine revelation, which must be religiously guarded and faithfully expounded. This is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly styled irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter. Therefore they need no approval of others, nor do they allow an appeal to any other judgment. For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person. Rather, as the supreme teacher of the universal Church , as one in whom the charism of the infallibility of the Church herself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of the Catholic faith."
    -- Abbott, S.J., Ed., The Documents of Vatican II, pp. 42-49 (Follett Publishing 1966)


    Catechism of the Catholic Church
    Promulgated by Pope John Paul II, October 11, 1992
    " 880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them." Just as "by the Lord's institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another."
    881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head." This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
    882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."
    883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."
    884 "The college of bishops exercises power over the universal Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council." But "there never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor."
    885 "This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the variety and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head."
    886 "The individual bishops are the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches." As such, they "exercise their pastoral office over the portion of the People of God assigned to them," assisted by priests and deacons. But, as a member of the episcopal college, each bishop shares in the concern for all the Churches. The bishops exercise this care first "by ruling well their own Churches as portions of the universal Church," and so contributing "to the welfare of the whole Mystical Body, which, from another point of view, is a corporate body of Churches." They extend it especially to the poor, to those persecuted for the faith, as well as to missionaries who are working throughout the world.
    887 Neighboring particular Churches who share the same culture form ecclesiastical provinces or larger groupings called patriarchates or regions. The bishops of these groupings can meet in synods or provincial councils. "In a like fashion, the episcopal conferences at the present time are in a position to contribute in many and fruitful ways to the concrete realization of the collegiate spirit."
    888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command. They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."
    889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."
    890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
    891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
    892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

    -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, 880-892, pp. 254-57 (Doubleday Image, 1995)
  5. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

    Aug 8, 2002
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    Hey Look! LaRae posts Pope Fiction! [​IMG]
  6. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    Prove it. You can claim the sky is green with pink polka dots that doesn't mean you are right.

  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Jul 13, 2000
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    This Scripture teaches that Christ will build His church upon Himself (1Cor.3:11). Peter is only a small stone in comparison to the foundation stone that Christ was. Throughout Scripture both God and Christ are consistently referred to as "Rock." Peter is not.
    "On Christ the solid rock I stand; all other ground is sinking sand."

    This is a prophecy of the death that Peter should suffer. It is also a command for Peter to feed the flock, a command given to every pastor. There is nothing in these verses to indicate anything about anyone being a pope.

    What has this to do with popery? Jesus said Whoever would be the greatest should be the least. He was teaching a principle that was never followed in any of the lives of the popes.
    He then warned Peter that Satan would tempt him greatly, but also reassures him because Christ Himself has prayed for him. But he never conferred upon him "popehood." Someone's dreaming if they think that.

    So Peter was directed by God to take the gospel message to the Gentiles. He had to be persuaded by a vision three different times, in order to overcome his prejudices. What has this got to do with being a pope? Nothing. Does it offer any evidence that Peter was pope? Absolutely not! None of the above Scriptures do.

    Your tome is a bit lengthy to read through, let alone to answer, so I'll answer at least some of it in parts.
  8. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

    Sep 3, 2001
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    First I waould like to commend you on your fabulous copy & paste job. ;)

    It is and always has been a commoc practice of RC apologists to practice eisegesis in their interpretation of Scripture and the "fathers". That is reading into Scriptures and the writings of the "fathers" something that isnt there in order to support a previously concieved un-Biblical doctrine or ceremonial practice that will further the political agenda of the Roman church. After all it is and always was temporal power the Roman Church is concerned with.

    1. The verses you cited from the KJV say nothing about infallibilty and succesion.

    2. The church "fathers" never isolated particular verse from their overall Biblical context and cosequently they have Biblical perspective of the foundation of the Church not a Roman one.

    3. Even if Jesus was referring to Peter as the rock how does the Roman church conclude that it is in a pro-papal sense?

    4 Finally I urge you to look up these two verses and compare them. Deut 32:4 and ICor 10:4

    That Rock was Christ!
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    May 14, 2001
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    Deuteronomy 32
    3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
    4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    1 Samuel 2
    2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

    2 Samuel 22
    2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
    3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

    Psalm 18
    31 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

    1 Corinthians 10
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    1 Peter 2
    6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

  10. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

    Sep 3, 2001
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    a little ps here.

    Alot of your quotations head into the dark ages and I would be careful using them. And I really had to laugh at your quotation by the kidnapper pope pius the IX, what a scoundrel he was. :D

  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    May 14, 2001
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    Hmm, that leads to a question...
    Where did Jesus ever give commandment to Peter to burn someone at the stake, or strangle them or disembowel them for not following Him?


    [ August 23, 2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
  12. Sir Ed

    Sir Ed New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
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    Hank, I can't and won't defend the Papacy, but I must ask where did Jesus ever give commandment to you to lust in your heart, lie, break speed limits, be greedy, or do whatever sin you committed today?
  13. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

    Sep 3, 2001
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    Great point Hank.
    It is also worth noticing that all the early references by "fathers" must be taken out of context because the reality of history is that there was no papacy until much later. Even alot of Roman Catholic historians concede this point.

    Later, ( I have to go now), I will put up some quotes by the same "fathers" cited above that will totally contradict the ones posted. Therefore it will prove that either they changed their mind or, they contradict themselves, or they are taken out of context.

    Also, did it ever occur to anyone that these "fathers" were just infallible men like you and me and they could be wrong on occasion? Their words werent inspired.
  14. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

    Sep 3, 2001
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    One other thing,
    Ed you said
    That seems kind of odd, since the whole Roman system is based on that portion of Scripture. (Matt 16:18)
  15. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted New Member

    Aug 8, 2002
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    I don't really want to bother with you. I've seen you on Steve Ray's Board. I know your style and the value of your apologetic (none). You have nothing beyond arguing from assumptions to go from.

    You assume and eisegete both Scripture and the ECFs accordingly. The fact ius that you can;t read back Papl staements from later years into the early years without doing serious harm to historical study. The others here are doing a good job of pointing that out. In the end you have not actualy proven that there was a papacy in the NT period. You have not accounted for the problems that were originally raised.

    So in a very real sense I'm saying show me something worth commenting on. This nonsense isn't.
  16. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

    Sep 3, 2001
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    In your post in which you quoted some of the "fathers", you included a quote of Ambrose. Here is another by Ambrose:

    "Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter's flesh, (his person) but of his faith that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it......Make an effort therefore to be a rock! Do not seek the rock outside of yourself. Your rock is your deed, your rock is your mind. Upon this rock your house is built. Your rock is your faith and faith is the foundation of the church. If you are a rock, you will be in the Church, because the church is on a rock. If you are in the church the gates of hell will not prevail against you.
    ( Commentary in Luke VI.98, CSEL32.4 )
  17. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Aug 29, 2001
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    Thought I would quote myself from last December. If you go back to the first page here, you will find "Who is the Rock?" Here it is:

  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    May 14, 2001
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    My point is the answer to this question:

    Don't you think it a bit strange that many of the so-called Vicars of Christ on earth from 800-1800AD sanctioned the slaugter of innocent men, women and children (not a traffic violation)?

    Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeh forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
  19. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Dec 5, 2001
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    Hi DHK,

    You wrote concerning Matthew 16:15-19, "This Scripture teaches that Christ will build His church upon Himself (1Cor.3:11). Peter is only a small stone in comparison to the foundation stone that Christ was. Throughout Scripture both God and Christ are consistently referred to as "Rock." Peter is not. "On Christ the solid rock I stand; all other ground is sinking sand.""

    Protestant scholars, across the board, agree that the person of Peter is "the rock" upon which Christ promises to build his church in this passage.

    Of course, they disagree with the Catholic interpretation of what this means, but nonetheless, agree that the Catholic explanation of the grammar is correct.

    First, we have William Hendriksen who is a member of the Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary. Then, we have Gerhard Maier, a leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian. Next, we have Donald A. Carson III, who is Baptist and a professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary. Or perhaps you would prefer John Peter Lange, a German Protestant scholar. How about J. Knox Chamblin, a Presbyterian and New Testament Professor at Reformed Theological Seminary. Or maybe you would prefer Craig L. Blomberg who is another Baptist and Professor of New Testament at Denver Seminary. We can also look to David Hill, a Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Department of Biblical Studies at the University of Sheffield in England. For a feminine represenation, you may consult Suzanne de Dietrich - a Presbyterian theologian. And, finally, you can check out Donald A. Hagner from Fuller Theological Seminary.

    God bless,

  20. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

    Dec 5, 2001
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    I've noticed that a few of you are curious as to how the Catholic Church pulls the doctrine of the papacy out of these few short verses in the 16th chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel.

    It's simple. The Church thinks like a Jew. Jesus is the anointed, the son of God, the son of David just as Solomon was the anointed, the son of God, the son of David and just as Hezekiah was the anointed, the son of God, the son of David. And, just as the Davidic King in the Old Testament had a cabinet of ministers with one minister (the Prime Minister) reigning over the cabinet, Jesus, the Eternal King, appoints his Prime Minister by giving him the keys of the kingdom.

    In Is 22, you may witness how Shebnah, the unworthy steward, will be deposed and replaced by Eliakim - both of whom held this place as vizier of the Kingdom. Of course, Jesus' language mirrors that of Is 22 when he appoints Kepha (sounds like "Kayfa" - Cf. John 1:42 where Peter's name is transliterated from the Aramaic) in this passage.

    Protestant Greek scholars like D.A. Carson and Joseph Thayer admit there is no distinction in meaning between petros and petra in the Koine Greek of the New Testament. (really, I urge you to consult Joseph H. Thayer, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament {Peabody: Hendrickson, 1996} 507 & D.A. Carson, "Matthew," in Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary {Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984}, vol. 8, 368.)

    Petra means a 'rock.' It even usually means a 'large rock'. And that's exactly what petros means, too — large rock. It does not mean 'pebble' or 'small stone,' as some Protestants have been told. The Greek word for 'pebble' or 'small stone' is lithos, not petros.

    In addition, looking at the Greek, Matthew used the demonstrative pronoun taute, which means 'this very,' when he referred to the rock on which the Church would be built: "You are Peter, and on taute petra (or "this very rock") I will build My Church."

    Also, when a demonstrative pronoun is used with the Greek word for 'and', which is 'kai', the pronoun refers back to the preceding noun. In other words, when Jesus says "You are rock, and on this rock I will build My Church," the second rock He refers to has to be the same rock as the first one. Peter is the rock in both cases.. according to the most learned contemporary Protestant exegetes.

    Jesus could have gotten around it if He'd wanted to. He didn't have to say "kai (or "and") on this rock I will build My Church." He could have said "alla (or "but") on this rock I will build My Church", meaning another rock. He would have then had to explain who or what this other rock was. But He didn't do that.. of course.

    Also, Peter was not a common name in the apostolic age. In fact, it was unheard of. Peter means "Rock" and comes from the Greek "Petras" which is a translation of the Aramaic "Kephas", the language Jesus and the apostles spoke. It is a new name given to him by Jesus as soon as Jesus first approaches this future apostle, Simon in John 1:42: "Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, 'You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas'"

    We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the Cross, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" That isn't Greek; it's Aramaic, and it means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

    What is Cephas? It is a transliteration of the Aramaic "Kephas", meaning massive rock. We have this name preserved 4 times in Galations and 4 times in 1 Corinthians. The Aramaic for small stone or pebble is evna. In the Old Testament, "Rock" referred exclusively to God alone, and here we have Jesus telling one of his disciples that he is the Rock the second they meet. This is obviously a sign that Jesus has something great in mind for this apostle.

    Name changes, in the Old Testament, signified that God had some special purpose for that individual. Take, for example, Abraham, Sarah, and Israel.

    Another point on the outdated "Petros"/"Petras" argument.. In the apostolic age, Petras and Petros had one and the same meaning (we know this from Greek poetry), and you couldn't name a man with a feminine noun, so to make it fit, the Greek changed Petras to "Petros" for grammatical sake. It was only after this that this Greek noun began to hold dichotomous meanings according to its gender (This is what our Protestant exegetes have to share).

    And thus, some ignorant Protestants still hold to the argument that Matthew 16:18 says "You are Petros and upon this Petras, I will build my church", and since today Petros means "small pebble", Jesus was contrasting Peter from Himself in this passage, which is merely pure misunderstanding of the passage taken out of its lingual context.

    God bless,


    Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis. (Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)