1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured 7 point Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Piper, Dec 12, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,218
    Likes Received:
    1,036
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You can claim the bible supports what it does not support, then claim my biblical view is unbiblical, but your effort at obfuscation is obvious to all.

    1) Since Unconditional Election is unbiblical, the flip side, double predestination is likewise unbiblical.
    2) The Seventh point is the "ends justify the means" demonic view cloaked in religious jargon.

    Calvinism denies the premise "your faith has saved you."
    Calvinism denies Paul spoke to unregenerate people using spiritual milk because they could understand and affirmatively respond.
    Calvinism denies Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved.
    Calvinism denies unregenerate pole sought God and embraced to varying degrees the gospel of Christ.

    God chose for salvation individuals utilizing their faith in the truth.
    God chose for salvation individuals rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him.
     
  2. Piper

    Piper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, I don't. You refuse to give me a yes or no answer.

    Do you believe that it is every believer's duty to personally evangelize unbelievers?

    Yes or no?


    Are you incapable of answering a yes or no question?
     
  3. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    143
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As I said, Primitive Baptists believe in election. If you’re an elect atheist, you just can’t be lost if you’re elected. That’s my understanding growing up there. I may have some of their literature from decades back, but I don’t think I do.
     
  4. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    143
    Faith:
    Baptist
    However, according to the Primitive Baptists themselves, they date back all the way to John the Baptist. At least some of them believe that, if my memory serves me correctly.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,654
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Several Baptist denominations believe that. It is a holdover from RCC doctrine (a concern with tracing oneself back to the Early Church with a succession of churches).

    Biblically this is unnecessary. If you and I found a Bible, read it, God used that to save us, we shared the gospel, others were saved, and we all formed a congregation then we would constitute a church. We would be no less so than one which thought it dated back through a line of churches to the NT times. The reason is Christ, not other congregations, would be the foundation for our church.
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear: 1 Pet 3
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,678
    Likes Received:
    2,909
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. Some are staunch Landmarkists.

    Agree.

    Actually, I think the 'Landmarkist attitude' has been around for a long time.

    9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mt 3

    ....possibly:

    4 For when one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not men? 1 Cor 3
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,552
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I know it may sound like it would be, "the flip side", of unconditional election, however again I reiterate, "double predestination", gives the connotation of a positive action by God of predestinating souls to hell.

    I don't think we can or should go there.

    ELECTION AND THE NON-ELECT.

    "Election imposes no restraint on the non-elect. It actively affects them in no way. It leaves them in exactly the same condition they would be in if there were no such thing as election- a condition of spiritual impotence and condemnation, such as all sinners are in by nature.

    "An election of some to life does not imply an election of some to death. The death of the wicked is not the result of election, but of God's just dealings with them as sinners. It is their rightful wages (Rom. 6:23).

    "In election God simply chooses out of the whole mass of depraved mankind those whom He pleases to save for just and holy reasons known only to Himself.

    "The rest He simply leaves to the just consequences of their sin.

    "If a rich man chooses out one beggar and gives him wealth, can it be justly said that in so doing he elects all other beggars to suffer perpetual poverty?



    "After reading the foregoing, one asked:

    "Does not the author believe in reprobation?"

    "The answer is, He most certainly does. And the foregoing is in nowise inconsistent therewith, but rather implicitly affirms reprobation.

    "The author is in full and happy agreement with Warfield in the following statement concerning reprobation: "Were not all men sinners, there might still be an election, as sovereign as now; and there being an election, there would still be as sovereign a rejection; BUT THE REJECTION WOULD NOT BE A REJECTION TO PUNISHMENT, TO DESTRUCTION, TO ETERNAL DEATH. BUT TO SOME OTHER DESTINY CONSONANT TO THE STATE IN WHICH THOSE PASSED BY SHOULD BE LEFT.

    "It is not indeed, then, because men are sinners that men are left unelected; election is free, and its obverse of rejection be equally free; BUT IT IS SOLELY BECAUSE MEN ARE SINNERS THAT WHAT THEY ARE LEFT TO IS DESTRUCTION"


    (Biblical Doctrines, p. 54)."


    "the decision to elect some individuals to salvation necessarily implies the decision not to save those that were not chosen."

    No, I can't see having left those who are not elected as a positive decision or as necessary in any respect.


    "God ordains not only that some will be rescued from his judgment, but that others will undergo that judgment."l

    God ordains that they face their sins and undergo judgment.

    Any ordination or decree of God to leave and not select 'the rest' is just that, in its negative sense.


    Believe it or not, I see "unconditional reprobation" fine, in the negative application of it, while "double predestination", may be seen as a taboo accusation against God that is inapplicable.

    That is why I revisited it.

    Although, I know you said the 7-point thing was a joke, but it turns out that there is a hidden disparaging perspective on it toward God that I, for one, would simply not encourage anyone to elevate it as being distinguished among the Five Doctrines of Grace.

    Because, it is not true, IMHO.



    Again, this covers the situation in a God-honoring way;
    Or, what you said adding, 'unconditional' to it; unconditional negative reprobation.
     
  9. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,552
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
  10. MrW

    MrW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    143
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your first five bolded paragraphs settled it very well. No double predestination. The rest added nothing to those paragraphs.
     
  11. Piper

    Piper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the end, we must.

    Read Jonathan Edwards Freedom of the Will.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,654
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I didn't think of those verses. I agree.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,654
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Very good book.
     
  14. Piper

    Piper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That book changed my life. I had started it in 2002 and again in 2005, and never got to page 50, using the Yale Edition. The in 2010, I exercised my will power and read the whole thing on vacation. It was sorth it. I am reading it again in my reading of his Works, the Hendrickson version this time. I can't afford all of the Yale Editions.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,654
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Same here. The first read was an exercise in will power. But it be some one of my favorites. I don't know if I'd place it with theology or Christian philosophy, but I think if that book was required study many of the Cal vs Arm arguments would not be had.

    Another very good (my absolute favorite) is God in the Wasteland by David Wells (author of No Place for Truth).

    If I were put on the spot to name 3 books that had an impact on my life, they'd be God in the Wasteland by Wells, Freedom of the Will by Edwards, and Desiring God by Piper.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Piper

    Piper Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have not read Wells. But Piper was my pastor for 10 years and is a personal friend. Desiring God shook my world in 1999.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God in the Wasteland is a fantastic book. I encourage all to read it as well as Piper's Desiring God.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,552
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you,
    brethren beloved of the Lord,
    because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
    through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    "Whereunto he called you by our gospel,
    to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 3,14.

    I said, "I know it may sound like it would be, "the flip side",
    of unconditional election, however again I reiterate,

    "double predestination",
    gives the connotation of a positive action by God
    of predestinating souls to hell.

    "I don't think we can or should go there."

    I'm getting into Jonathan Edwards' Freedom of the Will
    to try to figure out what the concerns are.

    This is what I got so far as, "double predestination",
    gives the connotation of a positive action by God
    of predestinating souls to hell.

    from: Predestination

    "In short, though this particular treatise
    was prompted by the challenge to Calvinism
    so boldly promulgated by one Russell Reneau,
    Mell’s real motivation issued from
    his conviction that Arminianism
    was really not just a different emphasis,
    but a different gospel.


    "The difference between traditional Arminianism
    and traditional Calvinism
    consists not in the supposition
    that the former emphasized man’s part

    and the latter God’s part;

    in fact, both have much to say about the relative parts played
    by the sinful creature and the holy creator.

    "A positive difference in substance
    forms the real impasse between the two.


    "Arminianism assumes an equality of God’s grace
    toward any number of sinners, some of which will be saved
    and some of which will remain lost.

    "Wherein lies the difference?

    "Man’s choice becomes the deciding factor between heaven and hell.

    "Therefore, in answer to Paul’s question,
    "Who makes thee to differ from another?"
    the Arminian, consistent with his system, must answer "I do."

    The Calvinist, however, states that salvation is truly of the Lord.

    "Only a particular distinguishing grace
    makes one sinner to differ from another.

    "Grace consists not merely of a provision and offer of eternal life
    but actually operates to make alive the dead sinner
    and bring him to repentance and faith.


    "The faith by which righteousness comes
    is granted no less than the righteousness itself.

    "Mell’s succinct statement of these truths
    demonstrates a lucidity of thought and cogency of argument
    few could parallel in his day, or since.

    "Seeing election and reprobation
    as only two particular manifestations
    of the comprehensive sovereignty of God,

    he expressed their essence and relationship in the following way.


    "In reference to men, Predestination is divided into two parts:

    "1st, as it relates to the elect,

    "and 2nd, as it relates to the non-elect.

    "Having decreed to create a world, and to people it
    with beings who would voluntarily sin against him,
    he determined from eternity to save some,
    and to leave others to perish in their sins.


    "Willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known,"
    he "endured with much longsuffering"
    these as "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    and that he might make known the riches of his glory on"

    those as "the vessels of mercy
    which he had afore prepared unto glory."
    Rom 9:22,23.

    "To carry out his purpose of grace,
    he chose some to holiness and eternal life,
    entered, for their sake,
    into the Covenant of Redemption with the Son and the Holy Ghost,
    appointed his Son as their substitute, to suffer in their stead,
    and, having died to rise again
    and appear as their advocate before his throne,
    appointed all the intermediate means necessary,
    and, by an infallible decree, made their salvation sure.

    "Those, "whose names are not written in the book of life" (Rev. 20:15),

    who are "appointed to wrath" (1 Thess 5:9),

    who were "before of old ordained to condemnation" (Jude 4)

    who would "stumble at the word, being disobedient,
    whereunto also they were appointed"
    (1 Pet. 2:8),

    he determined to leave in their sins
    and to endure them with much longsuffering
    as vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

    "While, by an immutable decree,
    He has made all things in time fixed and sure,
    all this occurs in perfect consistency
    with the free agency of the creature,
    and God is not the author of sin.—


    "The elect are, by the influence of sovereign grace
    made willing in the day of God’s power

    "and those not elected
    have no active principle of disobedience imparted to them,
    and feel no restraint upon their wills—


    "they are simply passed by,
    and permitted to follow the inclinations of their own hearts."


    "(Rev. P.H. Mell. Predestination and the Saints
    Perseverance Stated and Defended Charleston:
    Southern Baptist Publication Society. 1851, pp. 26-27.)"
     
    #98 Alan Gross, Dec 15, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2023
  19. taisto

    taisto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2023
    Messages:
    1,079
    Likes Received:
    100
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My sister-in-law had Dr Piper as a theology professor at Bethel College (now University). When John Piper accepted the pastoral position at Bethlehem Baptist in 1984, she started attending. She attended there and was married to my wife's brother in the Church. They got married in October of 1987, the night of the 6th game of the World Series when the Twins came back to beat the Cardinals. You could hear the cheers from the Metrodome when the Twins took the lead. Pastor Piper officiated the wedding.
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,552
    Likes Received:
    454
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "In the last part, part four, Edwards considers a host of objections against his position that are still made to this day. For instance: doesn’t moral necessity (that we must do what we are inclined to do) make human beings mere machines? Isn’t this another restatement of the Greek concept of fate?

    "Doesn’t this make God the author of sin
    by creating us with sinful dispositions?"


    "Whether or not we view Edwards’s answers to these questions as satisfying will in large part be determined (no pun intended!) by whether we’ve found his prior arguments about moral and natural necessity coherent and convincing.

    "Of particular help to many will be Edwards’s formal conclusion itself.

    "In this last flurry, Edwards works through each of the primary doctrinal pieces of the famous Reformed acronym TULIP in turn. With a winsome defense of Calvinism, Edwards arrives at his argument’s denouement –

    "God’s grace is absolutely necessary
    to overturn the sinful heart of the rebellious person
    and turn them to Jesus.

    "But in doing so, God also graciously “rewires” our predispositions
    so that we freely and willingly choose to savor Christ
    and follow Him by faith."

    from: Freedom of the Will: Synopsis

    I. HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY AND THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

    1. THE MEANING OF GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY.

    "The absolute sovereignty of God means just what Paul affirms in Eph. 1:11, where he speaks of God as one that
    "worketh all things after the counsel of His will."

    "This teaches just what the Philadelphia Confession of Faith teaches when it says: "God hath decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever comes to pass."

    "Other passages teaching the absolute sovereignty of God are as follows:

    "Who knoweth not in all these, that the hand of Jehovah hath wrought this, in whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind" (Job 12:9,10).

    "Jehovah hath established his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all" (Psa. 103:19).

    "Whatsoever Jehovah pleased, that hath he done, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and all deeps" (Psa. 135:6).

    "Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the Most High cometh there not evil and good?" (Lam. 3:37,38).

    "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things" (Isa. 45:7).

    "I am God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isa. 46:10).

    "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Dan. 4:35).

    "At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee 0 Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes" (Matt. 11:25).

    "Jesus answered him, Thou couldest have no power against me, except it were given thee from above" (John 19:11).

    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth"
    (Rom. 9:15- 18). See also Acts 2:2,3 and 4:27,28.

    "The question is, then, how can man be responsible for his actions when all that he does has been ordained and decreed of God? This is not a new question. It is at least as old as the New Testament, and probably much older.

    "Paul anticipated this question from his readers when he penned the wonderful ninth chapter of Romans. He said. "Thou will say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will."

    "And Paul's reply was: "Nay, but, 0 man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor."

    "Paul's mentioning of this question and his reply show conclusively that Paul taught the absolute sovereignty of God. Indeed his preceding words clearly teach it. Paul made the reply that he did because he anticipated the question as coming from an objector. When it comes as a reverent inquiry, it deserves more detailed consideration. Paul's reply had to be brief because his time and purpose would not permit a lengthy discussion.

    "Our time permits and our purpose demands a fuller discussion.

    "Man is responsible for his actions, notwithstanding the fact that God has decreed all that comes to pass, for at least three reasons:

    1. God's Decree Concerning Sin is Not Causative
    but Permissive, Directive, Preventive, and Determinative.


    "God decreed that sin should come in the world, for reasons that are fully known only to Him, but He decreed that it should come by man's own free choice. God does not compel man to sin, but He allows it. Man, and not God, is the efficient cause of sin; and for that reason man is responsible.

    "Before passing it needs to be remarked that no objections can be brought against the statement that God decreed that sin should come into the world that cannot be brought against God's actual permission of sin, unless the objector takes the position that God was powerless to prevent the entrance of sin. This would be a denial of God's omnipotence and sovereignty, and would render the objector unworthy of consideration here. God's omnipotence and sovereignty teaches us that whatever God permits He permits because He wills to do so. And since God is immutable, His will has ever been the same.

    "What He wills at any time He has willed from all eternity. Therefore, His will equals His purpose and His purpose equals His decree.

    2. The Law of God and Not His Decree
    Fixes Man's Duty and Responsibility.


    "The law of God is man's guide and standard. This is God's revealed will. God's decree is His secret will. Man has nothing to do with this except to know and acknowledge the facts concerning it.

    "The secret things belong unto Jehovah, our God; but things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut. 29:29).

    3. The Motive Back of Man's Sinning Makes Him Responsible.

    "Why does man sin? Is it ever because he wants to do the will of God? Nay, never so.

    "Why did men crucify Christ? Was it because they believed that God had sent Him to die as a sin-bearer? No. It was because they hated Him. They crucified Him through wicked motives.

    "It is thus that man always sins. Sin proceeds from man's love of darkness (John 3:19)."
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...