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A Biblical Response on Race

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Revmitchell, Jul 19, 2016.

  1. 777

    777 Well-Known Member
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    Wrong yet again - that is NOT for affirmative action is, neither in definition nor practice - from wiki:

    Affirmative action (known as employment equity in Canada, reservationin India and Nepal, and positive discrimination in the UK) is the policy of favoring members of a disadvantaged group who currently suffer or historically have suffered from discrimination within a culture.

    Notice that does NOT say anything about the historically disadvantaged group member getting the nod in a tie. That is not what AA is all about:

    In 2009, Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade and researcher Alexandria Walton Radford, in their book No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal, examined data on students applying to college in 1997 and calculated that Asian-Americans needed nearly perfect SAT scores of 1550 to have the same chance of being accepted at a top private university as whites who scored 1410 and African Americans who got 1100.

    Now official quotas are illegal but in many governmental jobs you get a bonus from the start if you are a minority, a woman, and/or a veteran. Colleges and employers just know better not to write the number down.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/24/u...irmative-action-university-of-texas.html?_r=0

    what happened there was there was some state program where all you had to do to get into some of their college was to graduate in the top 8%. SAT scores were ignored, so this was a boon to college sports as a result of grade inflation. Color-blind society indeed.
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, but as a veteran I am of the opinion a veteran has earned that bonus, often with, literally, a pound of flesh.

    Being a veteran is a matter of choice. Being a woman or a minority is not. :)
     
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Zaac, I'm going to add this:

    I think that you make some good points, although I do believe that sometimes you apply them too broad. What is more important, IMHO, is that you have the capability not only to genuinely empathize with the white man who is theoretically unemployable because of his race but also to recognize the inherent racism in such a system that would either hire or deny employment or benefit with race as the final determining factor.

    In your explanation you said that all things being equal the position should be determined by race - it should be given to "those" who have not been traditionally afforded the opportunity. It is important to note that those who have not been traditionally afforded the opportunity is a racial statement (you are associating individuals with a certain race, a solidarity based on the color of one's skin). We are not talking of individuals who have been passed by but people who belong to a race which has traditionally faced discrimination. So you suggest they be given the job because of their race to what end? If the only race is the human race then why would race even be a factor? What would you say to the man who was rejected solely because of the color of his skin?
     
  4. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    You call it whatever you like. You made a statement about AA and like so many folks who have complained about AA in the past, what you mentioned was not AA.

    Wrong to maintain the model that those who have suffered and still suffer from racist ideologies of the past should still be given opportunity where it was historically denied?

    There's nothing wrong with that model

    That ain't racism. And before AA, minorities who met the qualifications weren't even considered. The determining factor is giving someone equally qualified the same opportunity.

    How are you being victimized when the other person was equally qualified and considered when in the past he wasn't considered?

    I'm talking about loving your neighbor as yourself.

    For 450 something odd years the majority has discriminated against the minority. Yet some of you are upset that a demographic with a net family worth of 11000 to 140,000+ for white families has been given the opportunity to be considered the last 50 years?:Sneaky
    Nope. Wrong again. That is NOT the purpose of AA.
    And that ain't what AA does.

    It is and that ain't because of AA.

    And not considering them is racism too. So remove AA and see what real racism looks like.
     
  5. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    What do you mean asking such a question?
     
  6. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    That system was in place long before AA and is still in place. For the sake of federal jobs, minorities have to be considered where they didn't have to be before.

    Nope. They are to be given consideration.

    Nope. Those who have traditionally not been considered are now considered.

    It is important to note that those of a certain skin tone who have not allowed them to be considered for said positions in the past is also a racial statement. What's the problem with that?

    I suggested no such thing and that isn't what AA does either.

    Because sin is in the world. And when one group has enslaved another and set up a history of one group being able to prosper while another doesn't, then it will remain a factor.

    I'd say you're welcome at my house.:Biggrin
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm going to stop here because I am not sure where you are going with your statement. The model I mentioned was using race as the determining factor of opportunity. If you believe that there is nothing wrong with that model then why do you complain about racism in this nation? Is it perhaps because you believe that there is nothing wrong with affording opportunity to one race as long as it is not the white race?

    How do you justify denying employment to a man because he is white but employing another because he is black? Would it not be better to have a sign once you get to a certain level of qualification stating "whites need not apply"? Wouldn't that be more efficient and honest to the model?
     
  8. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Apparently the radical right lies too and continues to show that it doesn't know what affirmative action is.:Geek
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I mean, "Why. are. they. 'less. qualified?'"
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, I remember...not too fondly...when I was a USAREC recruiter. :(
    My question was how you justified to a person passing them over based on their race. Do you lie to them and pretend the other guy was better qualified? Or do you tell them that it is because they are white?

    I understand the overall goal of AA. But I disagree on Christian principle that race should be the determining factor. If all things are equal, and there is no advantage one way or the other then flip a coin...that would be better than racism as a system. Or increase the qualifications until someone comes out on top. But racism as a system should be foreign to Christianity.
     
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  11. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Why wouldn't race be used as a determining factor of opportunity when the attempt is to give those an opportunity for consideration who in the past, because of race, weren't considered?:Cautious

    If for 450 years race was used as a filter, then why shouldn't it now be used as a determinant for opportunity?

    Because they are mutually exclusive. AA isn't racism.

    Jon, I know you think I've got something against the "white race"(as you often imply on the sly) which in and of itself is stupid. What you and other white folks fail to comprehend is that white people have been afforded opportunity since the beginning of this country and still are afforded certain levels of opportunity over folks of other skin colors.

    It might offend folks. But it's time people started dealing with the truth no matter how uncomfortable it makes them.


    I justify it by saying for 450 years we gave deference to people with skin that looks like yours. Today we chose someone just as qualified as you but with skin that's a different color than yours because as a part of the government or private or public organization, we want to represent ALL of our people.

    Is that what the Fortune 500 companies do when it comes to minorities? Is that what the NCAA football DI teams do when it comes to head coaches?

    Then get the organizations who already have that glass ceiling in place for minorities to put up their signs.
     
  12. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Like this:

    I justify it by saying for 450 years we gave deference to people with skin that looks like yours. Today we chose someone just as qualified as you but with skin that's a different color than yours because as a part of the government or private or public organization, we want to represent ALL of our people.

    That's NOT AA.
    I tell them for 450 years we gave deference to people with skin that looks like yours. Today we chose someone just as qualified as you but with skin that's a different color than yours because as a part of the government or private or public organization, we want to represent ALL of our people.


    Race isn't the determining factor. Diversity and representing the people you sell to or serve is.

    That's silly. If 100% of my workforce is white and I'm selling to a clientele that's 40% minority, then I don't have to flip a coin.

    Nope. That's still skewed towards the folks who have always been in the majority because they have again been afforded the opportunity to do the things that get the extra qualifications.


    Apparently not as Christians flock to DT.
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and the National conference of State Legislatures seems to agree.

    http://www.civilrights.org/resource...maction.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

    http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/affirmative-action-overview.aspx
     
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  14. 777

    777 Well-Known Member
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    So, some Asian pre-med can't get into med school, despite having top grades and test scores, because 450 years of racial discrimination?

    On second thought, maybe I shouldn't have lumped the veterans in with the others - they ought to have preference in government employment because they essentially do have experience in government employment.

    It's the legacy preference in college admissions that I don't know about, but that's not affirmative action in practice, either. This old study:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=D7F89ECCAFB4E3BA381A712FD5327F17.f01t02

    • Whites (non-recruited athlete/non-legacy status): 0 (control group)
    • Blacks: +230
    • Hispanics: +185
    • Asians: –50
    • Recruited athletes: +200
    • Legacies (children of alumni): +160
    based on the old 1600 score - in theory, you could be a legacy asian athlete, so you'd get a +310 bonus there. Legacy admissions are payback for all the alumni donations.
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Because those people were not denied an opportunity in the past. People of their race were denied opportunity, and this denial has rippled to the present in the form of disadvantage. But those people were not denied opportunity.

    I do not care about politics (I gave up hope in that game long ago). But we can simply leave it here - If you would deny a man an opportunity because he is white then you are no better than those who would deny a man an opportunity because he is black. I'm sorry, but that's the only way I see it. But I would still welcome you in my home (we'd just talk about something else) :).
     
  16. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    You're scared of TC.:Biggrin j/k But the consideration you just gave him is the same type of consideration that Blacks and other minorities have asked be considered when they say they are systemically mistreated by police or when they say race has played in issue in a happening. See how easy that was?

    That's called EMPATHY. You listened and you considered what he had to say as a possibility. Many Christians don't do that when it comes to Blacks because of preconceived notions they have about Blacks.
     
  17. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    It doesn't matter why someone is less qualified. I believe you're trolling.
     
  18. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Enough of that same tired excuse from white America. There is a $130,000 wealth gap between the average white family and the average black family in this country. White people have benefitted from what happened in the past.

    Then care about the truth. It is disingenuous for white Christians to act like after 400 something years of oppression that suddenly after 50 or so years, all of the effects, economic and otherwise, have been wiped away.

    And there you go again talking like you don't know what you're talking about. Where has the white person been denied the opportunity? You see it the way you see it because you're seeing something I haven't said.
     
  19. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    Very few white Americans have inherited wealth. America has had Affirmative Action (an euphemism for institutionalized discrimination against whites) for blacks for three generations. The only thing crippling the black community are Democrats, black leaders, and groups like BLM. Blacks should be driving the criminals out of their neighborhoods, rather than going to war with police -- as one of many examples of why the black community is really suffering.

    And, yet your post is echoing political propaganda.
     
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  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, it is not. My veteran status is based on what I did, not on my skin tone or how I was treated. It was because I laid my life on the line to protect our way of life.
     
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