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A Calvinists Nightmare

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005.

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  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Jesus said that the Pharisees did not enter the kingdom of God and, furthermore, hindered those who were entering.

    I can just imagine a Calvinist mulling that one over in his mind in the darkness of the night.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #1 Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    You will have to be more clear. So far as I know, I have never known any Calvinist to have trouble with this. What is the passage you are referring to and what is your point?
     
    #2 Pastor Larry, Nov 4, 2005
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Pastor Larry,

    I made a mistake, it was actually the lawyers against whom Jesus made the charge. The passage is found in Luke's gospel. It says,

    "Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered."

    A similar charge is made against the Pharisees in Matthew:

    "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

    Just think about it a little and the implications for Calvinism will become clear.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #3 Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I have thought about it a lot, even before this, but don't see any implications that contradict Calvinism. Can you not elucidate them for us? What exactly do you think the problem is? Do you not believe that testimony hinders people? Do you not believe that false teaching and a false gospel hinders people? Calvinists do.

    So I am not sure what I am supposed to be troubled by.
     
    #4 Pastor Larry, Nov 4, 2005
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Pastor Larry,

    Just keep thinking about it and it will all come clear.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #5 Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005
  6. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    Too hilarious to even consider! We dont read minds and hearts here. We have open dialogue and without such its impossible to exchange ideas!
     
    #6 2BHizown, Nov 4, 2005
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Which sounds a lot like "I can't really articulate my point, but it gives me the opportunity to make some accusations."

    Let's do better than this Mark. If you can't make your point, then I will close the thread for being off topic and irrelevant. This is a discussion about the theology of soteriology. If the topic is not about that, then it has no place here. So far, this topic is about mind reading. That won't work here.
     
    #7 Pastor Larry, Nov 4, 2005
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Larry,

    I refuse to talk to a man who cuts off my answer. I'm through with you.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #8 Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    In other words, I can't answer you, I really don't have a point, you have seen through my obfuscation, and I must now run away and hide to avoid any more embarrassment. :D :D :D
     
    #9 TCassidy, Nov 4, 2005
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    He's referring to a post that I deleted in which he violated the standards of this forum.

    Mark, when you violate the standards and get deleted, it is not my fault.
     
    #10 Pastor Larry, Nov 4, 2005
  11. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    This thread should be deleted.

    He's calling Calvinists unbelievers who leading other people into damnation. It's doesn't have anything to do with theology but his anti-Calvinistic animosity.
     
    #11 whetstone, Nov 4, 2005
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    You think so? I didn't read it that way, but perhaps. Unfortunately, he won't clarify it without violating the forum standards so we don't know. I will give a few minutes for him to come back and say what he means.
     
    #12 Pastor Larry, Nov 4, 2005
  13. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    I clarified but Larry deleted it. He can dish it out but he can't take it.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #13 Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    You violated the forum standards. You have no one to blame but yourself. You were not deleted because of your explanation. I didn't even read it. Your first paragraph was what got you deleted.

    I dish out very little and I can certainly take anything you have to say ... But you need to say it like a Christian gentlemen.
     
    #14 Pastor Larry, Nov 4, 2005
  15. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman New Member

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    Great Post Mark. Larry seems to be a gamer imho. From reading all the other threads you are in Mark it seems you have absolutely no problem answering them. You seem to be one of the ones they can't answer! Great reading, I apprecieate it.
     
    #15 Timtoolman, Nov 4, 2005
  16. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith Member

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    If our ability to desire the things of God is annihilated, then no one is ever "entering in." Eeryone is running away, not trying to enter in.

    If God regenerates before faith, then these people are already in. They never tried to enter in......they were in before they had a desire to enter in.

    Those that are running away from "entering in" can't be hindered, since they're not trying to enter. Those already in had "entered in" before they wanted to enter, so they can't be hindered either. Either way, no one can hinder those who are entering in.

    THe point seems pretty clear to me. Only people trying to enter can be hindered from entering.
     
    #16 Humblesmith, Nov 4, 2005
  17. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Timtoolman,

    Thanks for the encouragement. Long time no "see"!

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #17 Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005
  18. whetstone

    whetstone <img src =/11288.jpg>

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    this thread is still here? What's going on? Delete it.
     
    #18 whetstone, Nov 4, 2005
  19. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    ...Just like the Arminian mulling over the fact that he really could have had the choir sing just one more verse of "Just as I Am?" ;)
     
    #19 Monergist, Nov 4, 2005
  20. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Monergist,

    Singing "Just As I Am" has nothing to do with bringing people to Christ.

    That notwithstanding, the Lord said certain people were hindered from entering the kingdom when they "were entering."

    If these people were predestinated not to enter the kingdom, as the Calvinists say, then it could never have been said that they "were entering."

    The statement makes sense only in the context that one's election is not settled until he actually enters the kingdom.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #20 Mark Osgatharp, Nov 4, 2005
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