Featured A closer look at "baptizo"

If you continue to call my words blasphemous, I will notify another moderator to give you an infraction. I have defended my position from the Bible, from the words of Jesus, and from the words of Paul. You have no argument.

No. He used leaven in a parable when speaking of the kingdom of heaven. There is a difference. In the parable "leaven is leaven."
The same principle is applicable to the woman who lost a coin and searched everywhere for it. The instrument (broom) that she used to sweep the floor: what in the parable did it represent? Perhaps the Holy Spirit? Something else maybe? No. It represented a broom, and nothing more.
As the broom represented a broom, so the leaven represented leaven.

You are trying to make leaven symbolize something it doesn't. You are trying to teach this "new doctrine" from a parable.

Who said anything about foxes. Where did that come from.
This is what I said:

Parables are used to illustrate truth already taught. You err in your approach to your understanding of the Bible.

And that is the truth.
You have demonstrated it in your approach to your understanding of parables.
You have demonstrated it in your approach to "spiritual gifts," taking scripture like Romans 1:11 out of its context.
You demonstrate a general lack of understanding in the field of hermeneutics.

That statement demonstrates what I just said above.
That statement was a response from what I said here:

One doesn't take doctrine from the Bible, but rather realizes that the parable illustrates one truth that the parable is illustrating. In the parable you are referencing, leaven means leaven.

It is a principle that you don't understand yet.

Your arrogance is deafening.
It is hard for you to accept the teaching of the Word of God, not only in this subject but even in returning to the OP, as you should.

1 Corinthians 12:13 και γαρ εν ενι πνευματι ημεις παντες εις εν σωμα εβαπτισθημεν ειτε ιουδαιοι ειτε ελληνες ειτε δουλοι ειτε ελευθεροι και παντες εις εν πνευμα εποτισθημεν

The scripture says what it says. Try reading it sometime.
I explained it to you. You can't refute what I say. All you can say is:
"the scripture doesn't say that."
That is lame.

What has greater authority: Mr. Webster or the Holy Spirit who wrote the Scriptures? I go with the latter, and use the Bible as my authority. I see that your authority is a dictionary. Here is what I said:

1Cor.12-14--supernatural gifts.
Romans 1--spiritual gift.
--they are as different as night and day.

Learn the difference. There is a big difference between the two epistles and between the doctrines that Paul was teaching in the two epistles.

Not all spiritual gifts are supernatural gifts, as they are in 1Cor.12-14.

I am quite capable of teaching algebra without my next door neighbor doing anything, thank you very much. That ability comes with home-schooling one's children.

It is not supernatural because I learned it in school first, and then further studied it when I had to teach it.

The supernatural sign gifts have ceased. There is no reason for them to exist any longer. Even you admitted this in a post to Biblicist some time ago, speaking of tongues. You are being hypocritical now.

There is a difference between the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, and spiritual gifts that Paul mentioned as in Romans 1:11.
I also have had hands laid on me at various times in my life. But nothing supernatural happened, and I never expected it to. It was purely symbolic, as it was for Timothy and as it was for Paul and Barnabas in Acts 13:1-4.

Acts 13:1-3 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

 

It is not an assumption it is the Truth. It is in the New Testament which is the New Covenant.

Again, God’s Spirit was with the Jews in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, God indwells inside His people.

It is not assumption it is truth.

It is your position, your assumption, your false teaching.

What about those people are you trying to say?

Quote the scripture exactly.

How do you think this takes away the fact that God’s people were the Jews? Explain that. You think you can add all nationality and people all over the world. The Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world, see Ephesians 2:12.

 

These are your words, “Leaven, no matter what is source, is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness.” Then reads Jesus’ words, “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough,” if a moderator reads both and does not find what you say as being a blasphemous mistake, then you have found another person like yourself.

Leaven is leaven, but you said, “Leaven, no matter what is source, is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness.”

You speak twisted nonsense. Stop twisting things and trying to make it as if I made the mistake you have.

How does it being a parable change what Jesus said? How does it being a parable change what you said?

Your leaven comment shows where you are. Your refusal to admit error shows who and where you are. Your attack on me to hide your error shows who and what you are.

You explained a scripture falsely, and then attack me as being a hypocrite.

Your reasoning is no reasoning, and you are exposed. You had nothing happen to you when you had people at various times lay their hands on you, but nothing supernatural happened, and for this you say nothing happened to Timothy either, that is was symbolic! I fear for you.

 

Leaven is directly identified as false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and hypocrisy.
Look how plainly it is identified:
1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
--It doesn't say it is like it. It says it is it.
But you are teaching Biblical error. You are teaching a new doctrine from a parable The parable says that leaven is like the kingdom of God. It does not represent the kingdom of God. Leaven represents leaven in the parable. Learn it.

You have made the mistake, and when you do mistakes you won't admit them. Parables illustrate truth. They don't teach truth.

I told you what the leaven represents and gave scripture to back it up.
Now I have given you scripture to show you how leaven does not fit into your teaching and cannot be taught as you say it is from a parable. You should be humble enough to accept it.
Leaven was always used to represent something negative: sin, hypocrisy, false doctrine, malice, wickedness. It was never used to represent anything positive. You are trying to destroy that pattern. In the parable it simply represents leaven, that which it is used for.

Your persistence in this discussion is astounding. It is off topic. You have called me names. It has to stop. Get back to the OP.

Is this your MO.
I set forth a position: The sign gifts/supernatural gifts have ceased.
Previously you even agreed with Biblicist on this citing the gift of tongues.
Now when I present a logical argument you attack me, tell me I can't present the Scriptures in a truthful manner. Is this your form of debate?

What has been exposed is your inability to debate or even hold a reasoned discussion on a topic. You refuse to accept Biblical facts.
Here they are again.
1. The gifts spoken of in 1Cor.12-14 are the sign gifts, the supernatural gifts.
2. The "gift" (singular) that Paul speaks of in Romans 1:11 refers to a gift coming from the impartation of the Word of God, as is seen from verse 12.
3. The laying on of hands, given in Timothy had nothing to do with any supernatural gift. Timothy received, according to a prophecy made, a ministerial gift, such as teaching or preaching. There was nothing supernatural here.
4. As referenced in Acts 13:1-3, they laid hands on Paul and Barnabas also, and they received no gift whatsoever. Just because they laid hands on an individual doesn't mean they receive a gift. The same is true of Timothy. However, his case had a special circumstance. But there was nothing supernatural about his gift. It is in a pastoral epistle and had to do with the ministry.

 

You have to have more than opinion to back up your words.
The context does not refer to an "event" it refers to revelation.
Verse 8 tells how prophecy, tongues and revelatory knowledge will cease.
Then it goes on and it tells how when the complete revelation comes these temporary gifts will be done away. Chapter 14 continue to talk about revelatory gifts such as tongues and prophesy. You fail to take the context into consideration.

What I remind you of is of no consequence. If you don't study the Scripture, and rightly divide the truth you err. You ignore the Holy Spirit. You ignore Christ. You follow foolish fables.

 

Show us from the context your "truth"? Quote the scripture rather than blathering a personal unsubstantiated opinion. You demand that of me and yet you dont practice what you preach - show from the context of Romans 8:8-9 you are correct and I am wrong. Show why Paul's words "IF ANY MAN" should only mean "POST-PENTECOST MEN" - scripture please!

Scripture please and show that the Ninevites were not God's people! Show that Rahab was not God's people; Show that Abel and Noah and Abraham - ALL NON-JEWS were not God's people. Scripture please!

Scripture please to prove it is not an assumption!

I have provided scripture (Rom. 8:8-9; Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2; etc.) YOU HAVE NOT provided any scripture. Practice what you preach - scripture please.

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

According to your theology he could not have known until after Pentecost! Your theology must be wrong since Jesus rebuked him for not knowing about the new birth by the Holy Spirit as a truth under the OLD COVENANT!

Le 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Jer 6:10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the LORD is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.

Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

You said, “Leaven, no matter what its source, is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness.”

Jesus said, “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

What new teaching am I making by exposing your big error?

Lol…I can hardly believe you say what you do.

You said, “Leaven, no matter what is source, is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness.”
You are wrong for saying leaven no matter what its source is symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice and wickedness, for I gave you a scripture where Jesus says, “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

You cannot make your lie sound true no matter how many times you repeat it.

I quoted what you said, and then I quoted what Jesus said. I taught you something all right, I taught you that leaven is not always symbolic of false doctrine, hypocrisy, malice, and wickedness.

You just repeated your error.

You should have just admitted error and apologized, instead you make long replies with denial, and accusations against me that is slanderous lying.

You are the one who jumped on my reply. Are you okay? How are you so confused?

 

God’s Spirit was with the Jews in the Old Testament. God’s Spirit was not with the Gentiles and Greeks in the Old Testament. I gave you scripture that says that. The scripture is Ephesians 2:12.
So stop lying about me.
In addition, you quoted a scripture from the New Testament, which means New Covenant. That is proof enough.

Are you delirious? Where have I said the Ninevites were or were not God’s people? YOU show scripture that they were “God’s people.” Where have I said Rahab was not God’s people? Rahab married a man call Salmon. You can find his name in Matthew 1:4-5. Salmon was the great-great-grandfather of King David. Where have I said Abel, Noah, and Abraham are not God’s people? Being a Jew is not just an ethnicity.

What you say makes no sense. What does after Pentecost have to do with having faith?

You need to show me from scripture in the Old Testament that God's Spirit lived in all believers.

 

Start from here:

It was the first decent response to the OP.

All those who don't reply to the OP will have their posts deleted. Do not derail this thread again.

 

David Wilkerson, though he did do a lot of good in his lifetime, was a Charismatic, and as such was not a theologian and his theology is off quite a bit.

True. But for the most part Baptist churches are independent. In particular IFB churches such as I belong to are completely independent and abhor denominations.

True and false. We are certainly not devoid of the presence of Jesus, nor of the presence of the Holy Spirit. But since the the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as outlined in 1Cor.12:28-30, have ceased, then of course we don't exercise or have them. We can't have what is not available.

A generalization that probably doesn't take into consideration most of the more evangelical churches.

This church has nothing to do with the world or with politics.

A totally wrong assessment. You see he is describing churches that, as he says are denominational and quite liberal. So don't go posting things that don't apply.

Likewise:

An unfair comparison and quite sensational.
He is comparing those who could exercise the supernatural sign gifts to those who do not have such gifts. And yet many great things are still accomplished in his name. It is a pity that you don't see them.

 

Epheisans 2:12 has NOTHING to do with Romans 8:8-9. You cannot show that my interpretation of Romans 8:8-9 is contrary to its immediate context so you play the cultic RJP game. You RUN from the immediate context of Romans 8 and JUMP to Ephesians 2:12 which has NOTHING to do with Romans 8:8-9 and then PIT Ephesians 2:12 against Romans 8:8-9 instead of DEMONSTRATING THE CORRECT interpretation of Romans 8:8-9 or DEMONSTRATING contextually why my interpretation is incorrect.

Ephesians 2:12 refers to something else. It refers to the fact that God now is working among the Gentiles primarily whereas before he was working among the Jews primiarily. You ignore that salvation before and after Pentecost was through faith (Abraham is given as that example - Rom. 4; Gal. 3:6-8) in Christ through the preaching of the very SAME gospel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43) and so Pre-cross saints were saved exactly as post-cross saints, they looked forward by faith as we look back but there was and is no other way to the Father but through Jesus Christ both before (Jn. 14:6) and after the cross (Acts 4:12) and the same is true about the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 8:8-9). The New Covenant is the "EVERLASTING COVENANT" of redemption according to Hebrews 12:20 and the same covenant all Pre-Pentecost true people of God were saved under by faith in the promise of the coming of Christ (Rom. 3:25).

Think about your own arguement! You have been arguing that Romans 8:8-9 could not apply to the pre-Pentecost "people of God' because you said the pre-Pentecost people of God were THE JEWS! I have proven that the Pre-Pentecost people of God INCLUDED GENTILES also because Abel, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, the Ninevites were NOT JEWS but GENTILES and they were the PEOPLE OF GOD as well just as after Pentecost the people of God included JEWS (Acts 2-9) as well as Gentiles (Acts 10-28). Hence, your argument against Romans 8:8-9 that says the Pre-Pentecost "people of God" were only Jews is WRONG!

Again, Your repeated argument against Romans 8:8-9 applying to Pre-Pentecost "people of God" has been that THE JEWS were the pre-Pentecost people of God. Go back and read your own posts for heaven sakes. Now you are admitting that response is WRONG. Now you are admitting GENTILE or NON-Jews were also the people of God prior to Pentecost as Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham were all GENTILES. The Ninevites were all GENTILES. Circumcision NEVER saved anyone or made anyone SPIRITUALLY the people of God or made anyone a SPIRITUAL Jew and Romans 4:11 proves that as Abraham was a PEOPLE OF GOD before circumcision. No one before Abraham were circumcised or were a Jew but they were the PEOPLE OF GOD by new birth by the Holy Spirit.

Look at my statement you are responding to! We are talking about John 3:3-11 and the NEW BIRTH not about faith. Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for being ignorant of the Holy Spirit's work prior to Pentecost working within people making them children of God. Jesus is repudiating your theory that the Holy Spirit did not work in and regenerate pre-pentecost people of God.

Apparently you think the New Testament Scripture is not as inspired as the Old Testament Scripture??? Or that some scripture is more inspired than other scripture. I can show you from the Old Testament that the Holy Spirit indwelt Moses, David, Jospeh, Daniel, Samuel but you would simply say they were exceptions or some other nonsense. Romans 8:9 clearly tells you that "IF ANY MAN" have not the Spirit of God "HE IS NONE OF HIS."

There can be no salvation apart from the NEW BIRTH for any man living at any time just as Jesus tells Nicodemus and you won't believe what Jesus said either.

SPIRITUAL DEATH is the state of ALL MANKIND regardless of what time they live and is SEPARATION from the Spirit of God. This is a simple truth that even novices in the faith understand. SPIRITUAL UNION is eternal life as God is Life and one must be SPIRITUALLY UNITED to God in order not to be SPIRITUALLY DEAD - this is a simple truth that even novices in the faith should understand.

Hence, "IF ANY MAN HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD HE IS NONE OF HIS" and cannot possibly be a child of God, saved, a saint, people of God because all who are not in SPIRITUAL UNION with God are SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED and that is what SPIRITUAL DEATH is - lost, unregenerated, spiritually dead people. THINK for a change!

 

My last sentence was "Think for a change"! Yet you claim that my THINKING in all previous sentences are "exceedingly true" in your estimation. Do you see an obvious contradiction between your own statements? Previously you called me an "enemy of God" and now you are agreeing that I can see what you claim many don't see???? Do you see an obvious contradiction between your former and latter conclusions about my person?

That is one interpretation of that text but not the only one. Many interpet that to mean that Christ went and did his preaching through Noah to these who are now in hades rather than going to preach to them in hades.

We agree here.

 

That is true! My mistake then.

 

You are the one playing cultic “RJP” games.
You said the Jews in the Old Testament, along with Gentiles as Cornelius had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Jesus’ ministry. Ephesians 2:12 tells us that the Gentiles were separate and without God and Christ.

You have been shown the truth, but still, you reject it and fight against it.
Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
You try to use Romans 8:8-9 to say all those believers from the Old Testament had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as well as God fearing Gentiles. You are wrong.

The scriptures do not say that. You give your own wisdom and call it God’s wisdom.

The Jews were God’s people. You show me in the Bible where it says what you are saying. Show me from the Old Testament that the Gentiles are God’s children. I have shown you scripture that says the Gentiles were separate. You cannot just dismiss a scripture.

You keep trying to hide the truth with a bunch of rambling. YOU said the Holy Spirit indwelled in all the believers of the Old Testament!

Stop trying to separate Noah and Abraham from being God’s people! God is God over everyone. However, you have not shown proof for what you claim; you only try to hide it through a bunch of rambling and false accusations against me. YOU said the Holy Spirit indwelled in all the believers in the Old Testament, and in Gentiles and all other people. God’s Spirit was with Noah, Abraham, Israel. The Bible says the Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Stop with your slanderous arguing. Stop trying to hide the fact that you made a mistake. God’s Spirit was with Israel, not inside them all.
John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
Did you see that? Jesus before being crucified and ascending to heaven said the Holy Spirit live WITH them, AND WILL be IN them.

 

What does the Scripture say about the snake?

 

"That at that time" (Eph. 2;12) during their unregenerated state! He is talking to the gentile believers at Ephesus and describing their condition BEFORE THE GOSPEL CAME TO THEM. The Gospel was preached by every prophet in the Old Testament to both GENTILES (Adam - Gen. 3:15; and Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham) and to Jews according to Acts 10:43 and Hebrews 4:2.

Ephesians 2:12 has nothing to do with Romans 8:9-9!

It is difficult to discuss anything with such an irrational and unreasonable human being as you. You can't even understand the meaning of RJP even after spelling it out for you! I did not RUN ("R") outside the context of Romans 8:8-9 - YOU DID! I did not JUMP ("P") to a text outside of the context of Romans 8:8-9 - YOU DID, you ran to Epheisans. I did not PIT ("P") one text against another text - YOU DID, you pitted Ephesians 2:12 against Romans 8:8-9) INSTEAD OF demonstrating from the context of Romans 8:8-9 why my interpretation was wrong. You simply cannot comprehend simple English OR you simply choose not to - I don't know which is the case.

The Jews were the chosen people of God AS A NATION. Are you claiming that every INDIVIDUAL Jew was a true child of God by regeneration (John 3:3-11)???? Jesus is directly repudiating that every INDIVIDUAL Jew is a child of God by NEW BIRTH and He is repudiating the idea that the New birth was not a PRE-Pentecost reality!

Are you denying that Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham were INDIVIDUAL children of God by NEW BIRTH??? Are you denying that Abel, Seth, Noah and Abraham were GENTILES - NON-JEWS? Are you denying that Abel, Seth, Noah and Abraham were the PEOPLE OF GOD before Israel ever existed??? That is pure ignorance if you are.

YOU ARE THE ONE denying they are "God's people" because YOU ARE THE ONE demanding that only Israel were the "people of God" before Pentecost? For Pete's sake can't you follow your own line of argumentation???????

Try reading the entire post before responding to it as your responses are absurd, irrational and rediculous.