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A Different Salvation?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed1689, Apr 23, 2019.

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  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Sin is disobeying God.
     
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 9:30 PM Pacific.
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Only because there was no response to the original post.

    Both humas and soterian are found in the accusative case showing that both indicate termination of the action of the verb eileto. One is the direct object and the other is the indirect object. The preposition eis is a directive/movement preposition as it carries action toward something which in this case finds the termination of that action in the accusative case soterian which is also the case of termination of action. In contrast en is not a directive preposition but speaks more of position/location/sphere/means/instrumental and thus naturally would go with the dative case hagio. Both pistei and alethia are Feminine, the former is dative case (again agreeing more with the preposition "en" as position/location/sphere/means) while the latter is gentive case. So, the most natural reading is that "eis soterian" terminates the action of "eleto" IN ETERNITY PAST (from the beginning) concerning "humas" whereas, "en hagio....kai ...pistei" - dative nouns) is further explanatory of soterian demonstrating the sphere or means by which salvation IN TIME(sphere/means) is administrated.

    We have two different actors ("God" and the "holy Spirit") with two different actions. The first Actor does his work BEFORE TIME ("from the beginning") or as Paul says elsewhere "before the foundation of the world." The Father acts BEFORE TIME choosing them "in him" (Eph. 1:4) but the Holy Spirit's act occurs IN TIME (sphere and means "en") which is setting the chosen apart and belief of the truth as this actor and action necessarily is performed IN TIME. Hence, you are confusing the Actors and their actions and the time of their actions. The act of choosing them "in him" is not the work of the Holy Spirit IN TIME but the work of the Father BEFORE TIME. It is IN TIME that the Holy Spirit sets apart those chosen by the father as it is IN TIME they belief the truth.

    So, you are reversing the works and the workers in order to support your view when the text will not support your reversal.

    False for several reasons. First, there is no time before creation as time is a measurement of created things and we were chosen "before the foundation of the world" and thus "from the beginning" already chosen before time began. Second, you are again confusing the two workers and their works. You are attributing the work IN TIME with the work BEFORE TIME and thus confusing the work of the Father with the work of the Holy Spirit. We are "saved by grace through faith" IN TIME but not before time and that is the work of the Holy Spirit not the work of the Father.


    . No, it is the Biblical text. "wherefore" points back to just what was said about "belief in the truth" as that is connected with "called by our gospel." Second, it is effectual "to the OBTAINING of glory" not merely the POSSIBLE PROSPECT of obtaining glory.

    The grammar repudiates your assertion that the faith existed before we were chosen. The text uses the perfect tense verb translated "saved" which points to an already completed action (which in context refers to being quickened - vv. 1-5, 10 "created in Christ") and says that action was completed "through faith" thus making faith inseparable from that action and contained within that action or else it would not be a completed action at all. If you have arrived at the other side of a mountain going "through a tunnel" then going through the tunnel is inseparable from arriving at the other side of the mountain or else you have not arrived. Get the point - that is what the Greek perfect is yelling at you!

    Your right, nobody should pay attention to your bogus interpretation as it has nothing to support but is directly contradicted by the context and grammar. Again, going "through" a tunnel is part of, and inseparable from the action of arriving on the other side of the mountain IF that arrival is said to be "through that tunnel." Likewise, "faith" is inseparable from the completed action of "saved"" as that action cannot be completed unless "through faith" is included in being "saved" (quickened, created in Christ).

    Wrong! I quoted verbatum what he said and he said that "saved-through-faith" is the gift just as the perfect tense tunnel analogy demands.

    That is precisely the advice you should follow concerning your error after errors that are grammatical wrong and proven wrong.
     
    #143 The Biblicist, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You got to hear from God and know his will before you can disobey him! His commandments/law reveals right and wrong - so easy, so simple!
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    For those who may not know, this is Van-ese for 'please do not introduce facts into the discussion.'
     
  6. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    His will shows more

    Jas 4:17
    Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth itnot, to him it is sin.
     
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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