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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by HAMel, Aug 4, 2014.

  1. HAMel

    HAMel Well-Known Member

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    Yep, yesterday morning and evening our Pastor took us through Daniel 9.

    It does appear the start of the Abomination of Desolation is precisely in tune and moving right along with our Lord's prophetic clock. It's all spelled out for us.

    Between the time of the last Old Testament Prophet to the beginning of the New Testament Era some 400 years or so elapsed with total silence from the Lord. A "week". This, itself, was told by Daniel along with telling of the arrival of Jesus.

    Exciting times for sure and here comes the muslims. ...allah is going to leave them high and dry.

    I adhere to the Pre-tribulation side of the isle and find it just amazing how things are coming together. As a Pre-Trib'er I wonder if we will be aware of and/or witness the events happening on earth during this time?
     
  2. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member

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    Well....

    If you want to see some heavenly pay back you'll have to be a mid tripper,like me. LOL

    Some may disagree with your observations and my stance but I too think things look good for that early morning visit by the thief in the night.....:smilewinkgrin:
     
  3. HAMel

    HAMel Well-Known Member

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    If you want to see some heavenly pay back you'll have to be a mid tripper,like me. LOL

    rd2, I look at it this way. It would be normal for any parent to protect their children from any calamity if they are aware of potential danger. Those of us who believe would certainly catch on real quick. This "little horn" will sweep the world. First Red Flag.

    So it is with our Lord. As our Heavenly Father I question why He would allow us to suffer as so described during this era. Course, the first half of the tribulation is an ultra liberals promise of paradise. Their utopia has finally arrived!!! So they will think.

    I am also of the opinion that since the beginning of time the presence of the Lord has been recognized on planet earth. During our age we have the Holy Spirit. This presence, to me, is what is keeping satan somewhat in check. Once the Holy Spirit is gone..., along with the believers, satan if totally free to reign.

    Yep, I'm pre-trib.
     
  4. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    By that logic then God is being an abusive parent to Iraqi Christians right now who are suffering horribly, indeed they suffer great tribulation right now, at the hands of Muslim extremists.

    Also the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the earth. The Spirit is God. God is omnipresent. Thus he is always here. For the Spirit to be removed from the earth he would first have to cease being God.
     
  5. HAMel

    HAMel Well-Known Member

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    By that logic then God is being an abusive parent to Iraqi Christians right now who are suffering horribly, indeed they suffer great tribulation right now, at the hands of Muslim extremists.

    Also the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the earth. The Spirit is God. God is omnipresent. Thus he is always here. For the Spirit to be removed from the earth he would first have to cease being God.


    It would appear you're trying to be argumentative? Believers have suffered from day one. So what's new? Have believers been subjected to what has been promised during the last three and a half years of the tribulation? No, I don't think so. Those days will usher in troubles the world has never seen so there is no comparison, in keeping with "your logic".

    As for the Holy Spirit, what I'm referring to is specifically during the tribulation days and yes, I do believe what is keeping satan somewhat subdued right now is the presence of our Lord here on planet earth. Yes, I do believe the Holy Spirit will step aside but only for a season.

    However, to each his own.
     
  6. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Not trying to be argumentative per se, just pointing out that your view is inconsistent. The suffering prophesied for the saints in Revelation is no worse in quality than what is going on right now, or, as you pointed out, as has been going on since the foundation of the church.
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    We will be if we "have eyes to see, and ears to hear ... " :thumbsup:
     
  8. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member

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    So by your logic, the Spirit of God is in inside of every person on earth, even non believers?
     
  9. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Salvifically? Of course not. But you would be mistaken to think that anything, including the heart of the wicked, is concealed from the presence of God or to think that he will someday be removed from the earth. Psalm 139
     
    #9 RLBosley, Aug 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2014
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    By your logic:
    God was an abusive parent then to:
    the Apostle Paul, to all the apostles except for John who were martyred,
    to Christianity in general throughout history.
    They have faced Roman Catholic crusades, Inquisitions, persecution at the hands of the Muslims, and many other religions.

    However The Great Tribulation is not about believers in Christ. They will be raptured. It is about God's wrath being poured on this earth, upon the enemies of Israel in particular, against the unrepentant. In that respect it has nothing to do with the believer who should expect to suffer persecution as a believer in Christ.

    Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
     
  11. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Actually that would be according to HAMel's logic not mine. I do not believe God is abusive in permitting his children to suffer persecution.

    And your spiel about the tribulation is your view, not the explicit teaching of scripture.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member

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    We who hold to the pretrib rapture timing do NOT say that is when the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth, as he is God and is everywhere, but that the direct influence that he uses thru the Body of Christ here on earth will be departed!

    he will still due his work to convict and to save the elect chosen in christ during that end times, but not working thru them to keep evil in check!
     
  13. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    I was quoting someone who specifically said the Holy Spirit is "gone" from the earth after the rapture. Pay attention.

    I know not all pre-tribbers believe that, but you are badly mistaken to say that none do.
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is a disputed point.
    In one sense He isn't gone since God is omnipresent.
    In another sense He is, because God works through men, and that body of believers that He works through will be gone.
    He says to the believer now:
    "You are the salt of the earth; You are the light of the world."
    There will be no salt to restrain the evil to come; no light to tell of The Light that shines into the hearts of men. In that sense He is gone.

    There will be conviction of sin.
    Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    --After all, since when is man afraid of a lamb? Since when do Lambs become angry? This is quite an awesome picture that takes place right before the coming of Christ. There is conviction, but no repentance.

    The reason:
    2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    --They will be under a strong delusion.
    --Their faith is in a lie (that the anitchrist is actually God)
    --They are all condemned; they believe not the truth. It does not appear from this passage that any will be saved during The Tribulation (apart from the Jewish nation).
     
  15. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    So new believers during this so called Great Tribulation will not have the Spirit?
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    First, I said the Holy Spirit Himself is omnipresent. He will be there.
    However, he works "primarily" but not exclusively, through other believers.
    Then I said, the Scripture of 2Thes.2 gives a strong indication that apart from the Jews no one will be saved. (I realize this is a controversial point). The language is quite strong there. "God shall send them a strong delusion... that they should believe a lie...that they ALL might be damned."
    If "all" means "all," who will be saved?
     
  17. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    So these Jews will be saved simply by virtue of being Jews and the will not have the Spirit?
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Where did I say that, or where do you get that idea from?
     
  19. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth New Member

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    I don't know about that bro and I'm not suggesting support of any 'theology' in saying this. God can remove Himself from whatsoever He wills and in so doing 'He does not cease from being God' which is an impossiblity. I will not limit Him with human logic or reason...Isaiah 55:9.
     
  20. HAMel

    HAMel Well-Known Member

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    Folks, it's kind of sad but it does seem to me that some of you are so in need of showing others their error(s). "How intelligement you is and how dumbs some of the rest of us is." Really, that is how it appears to me.

    So, for your consideration, please be advised that I'm still "entitled" to my opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent..., I am still entitled to my "opinion" and just because YOU say so doesn't make it a fact.

    No, i ain't never gaduated from the Yale School of Theology nor did i never attend the Jethro Bodine School of Advanced Mathetics and 'cernment.

    On the contrary, I received my best education after I got out of school.
     
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