A Mystery To Me...

[TCGreek]

1. Today I was speaking to a fellow SBC pastor about the mystery of sanctification.

2. To appreciate this mystery of sanctification, you must be a Calvinist:

a. How is it that even after we have been regenerated and given a new nature to desire God, we sin against God, even to the point of falling away for a season?

b. How is it that Paul says that it is God who is at work in us to work and to do according to God's good pleasure (Phil.2:13) and yet believers sin, even to the point of falling away for a season?

3. And Why, at the same time, some believers who have the same Spirit of God in them, never so sin as to fall away for a season?

4. After much discussion, we both concluded that these scenarios all point to the Mystery of Sanctification.

 

[webdog]

I know what the "mystery of sanctification" is...free will

 

[TCGreek]

I know what the "mystery of sanctification" is...free will

So you believe that a true believer can lose his/her salvation?

 

[webdog]

I don't recall ever saying that. The answers to your a, b, and c is that we are free moral agents with the ability to choose. Obviously, a calvinist will never admit that, so they have to fall back on the "mystery".

 

[TCGreek]

I don't recall ever saying that. The answers to your a, b, and c is that we are free moral agents with the ability to choose. Obviously, a calvinist will never admit that, so they have to fall back on the "mystery".

Every well-bred Calvinist believes in man's ability to choose.

 

[Bro. Williams]

Every well-bred Calvinist believes in man's ability to choose.

Is that true of salvation as well?

 

[webdog]

Every well-bred Calvinist believes in man's ability to choose.

...yeah, while doing this...

The ability to chose between one thing, by definition is not a true choice.

 

[TCGreek]

...yeah, while doing this...

The ability to chose between one thing, by definition is not a true choice.

Does God have free will?

 

[TCGreek]

Is that true of salvation as well?

The Bible answers that question quite well (John 6:37, 44, 45, 65).

 

[Bro. Williams]

The Bible answers that question quite well (John 6:37, 44, 45, 65).

Yes I am familiar with the verses. Does this approach then mean that one can choose everything in his life, other than salvation?

 

[Bro. Williams]

It is nap time here, I will try to check back later in the morning.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes I am familiar with the verses. Does this approach then mean that one can choose everything in his life, other than salvation?

1. From my understanding of these verses, a person can only choose Christ/come to Him for salvation, only if granted/drawn by the Father to Christ.

2. The NIV at verse 65 is helpful:"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

 

[donnA]

Before salvation man is a slave to sin, dead in his sin and tresspasses, as scripture tells us, but after salvation he makes the choice to continue to sin or live in his new freedom from sin. A dead man has no free will, no choice, he is dead, but a live man(born again, saved) now has a choice to follow Christ or not. Sadly we see many chose not to follow Jesus and seek a holy lifestyle.

 

[webdog]

Does God have free will?

Why wouldn't He?

 

[webdog]

A dead man has no free will, no choice, he is dead, but a live man(born again, saved) now has a choice to follow Christ or not.

A dead man cannot feel pain and suffer either, making hell pointless and meaningless to a corpse.

You also have the problem of believers being "dead to sin". I hope you don't hold to the notion we are unable to sin...

 

[TCGreek]

Why wouldn't He?

Can He Sin?

 

[TCGreek]

1. God cannot choose to sin, yet He is the epitome of free will.

2. God can only make one choice and that is to choose the good, yet He is the epitome of free will.

3. I propose that we reconsider what we commonly call "free will."

 

[psalms109:31]

Draw

God draws us by His word. His word say's that whosoever believes shall not be condemned but have enternal life and those who are have already been condemned is not because they were not chosen but because they have not believed in His Son.

Jesus words can do this, because not mens word, but the words of Jesus has Spirit and Life to them making so that whosoever can come. The cross has not lost its power, only mens faith in it.

Problem we have today just like then.

To many people were never drawn to Jesus they are just following the crowd.

Today all can have a personal relationship with Jesus.

It begins by trusting in Jesus not your own understand and He will direct your path.

 

[skypair]

Before salvation man is a slave to sin, dead in his sin and tresspasses, as scripture tells us, but after salvation he makes the choice to continue to sin or live in his new freedom from sin. A dead man has no free will, no choice, he is dead, but a live man(born again, saved) now has a choice to follow Christ or not. Sadly we see many chose not to follow Jesus and seek a holy lifestyle.

What do you think of this alternative: One could choose to live like a Calvinist without ever trusting in Christ as Savior? A good for instance" would be someone who grew up in a Reform Church and just conformed to Calvinism/Lutheranism naturally. Could that happen -- dead in sin, living like a Christian because he never chose Christ??

skypair

 

[skypair]

1. God cannot choose to sin, yet He is the epitome of free will.

2. God can only make one choice and that is to choose the good, yet He is the epitome of free will.

3. I propose that we reconsider what we commonly call "free will."

You got it wrong, TC. God could have sinned very easily in Christ's flesh -- but He chose not to. Do you not believe the verse that says "He was tempted in all ways like unto us yet siined not?" Such a statement would presume that God could choose to sin, especially in the body of Christ, but did not.

Your comments go a long way toward explaining how you are "bewitched" with Calvinism, though. Even the "low hanging fruit" of scripture and logic are still "out of reach" to you.

skypair