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A Practical Question for Secret Rapture, Pre-tribulationists

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Jun 6, 2002.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Christians who believe that Christ will take His church home before the Great Tribulation did not fashion this truth around their need to escape this future era of time. Our views have come out of the book of Reveltion, Daniel and Ezekiel.

    The Seal Judgments will begin according to Revelation 8. There will be the Trumpet Judgments, the Vial Judgments and perhaps others not mentioned here. These events have not begun yet. There are some misled people who foolishly believe that we are in the Great Tribulation. I'm still looking for the asteroid that hit the earth; I must have missed seeing it or hearing about it. Revelation 8:10 indicates this event will happen. Revelation 16:4, for example, says that 'the fountains of water became blood.' Has the Euphrates dried up yet? Check your newspaper. This event is yet to take place. [Revelation 16:12] These are only as sampling as to why God calls these judgments--the Great Tribulation and one that is unprecidented in human existence.

    The Prophet Daniel in chapter twelve verse one offers these ideas. He says in effect, ' . . . there shall be a time of trouble, such as NEVER was since there was a nation even until this time . . . '

    A great, great dissevice is done to the Lord by watering down the truths of these unthinkable judgments that will face all those who do not love Jesus.
     
  2. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Different names = different events? Why do you not apply this rule to the rest of your eschatology? ;) There has to be a better reason than this to believe in multiple judgments.

    What does "literal" have to do with this? I believe both saints and sinners will be judged, as do every amiller I've ever talked to. We are discussing the number of judgments, not the literalness of judgments. Where does the Bible literally say the final judgment for saints happens at a different time than the final judgment for sinners?

    Sorry, I'm falling for the "guily by association" argument, nor am I interesting in defending views I do not hold. ;)

    Brian
     
  3. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    I disagree. Where in Rev, Dan, or Ezek does scripture teach two different final judgments separated by time?

    I thought we were discussion the final judgement, not judgments in general.

    Brian
     
  4. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I know you may disagree with this, but I sincerely believe the facts will show that most Christians today are not pretrib, premillers and that the vast majority of Christians during the past 2000 years have not been pretrib, premillers. I don't believe I am doing a disservice to my Lord because the interpretation of the book of Revelation I subscribe to is different than yours, I am not pretrib, premill. I am an amill of the philosophy of history school as excellently taught by William Hendriksen in More Than Conquerors.

    I will gladly put Hendriksen's exegesis of the book of Revelation up against the finest that the pretrib, premill school has to offer. [​IMG]

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    There are no saints at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. John does, however, speak of people raised from the sea, plus Hell was cast into the Lake of fire. I never heard of saints being judged and then walking to the gates of Hell and entering there.

    Notice the contrast.

    In II Cor. chapter five Paul speaks about those who die in the Lord having a spiritual body and that they will be with the Lord. In this chapter He is teaching the saints. Then the apostle said, 'WE {saints} must all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ . . . ' Even as far down as verse 14 he is still teaching the people of God. 'For the love of Christ constraineth us . . . '
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    But there is nothing in what you say above that necessitates a significant time gap as we understand time on this earth. In eternity when all judgment takes place, time no longer matters as we have known it here.

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Ken,

    The Catholic church, like you, believes that the kingdom age is now and that there will be a one time event called the Judgment day. This is, of course, all a part of Reformation Theology, a theology that is wedded to Catholicism and was handed down to some Protestants via 'friar' Luther and Calvin.
     
  8. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Rev 20:11-15 does not say there are no saints there.

    Neither have I. Where does this passage teach that all present go to hell? It simply says "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." It would stand to reason that if someone's name WAS found in the book of life, they AREN'T sent to the lake for fire.

    How does this teach this judgment happens at a different time than the judgment of Rev 20:11-12? Why, other than a requirement of a preconcieved idea, should we not assume these are talking about the same event when they are talking about the same topic, using similar images and language? What *from the text* causes us to determine these are different events?

    Brian
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Oh, please. :rolleyes:

    You know as well as I do, Ray, that Reformed theology is about as wedded to Catholicism as it is to what is preached in the average Baptist pulpit on Sundays.

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
     
  10. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Ray, you must understand that "guilty by association" is not a valid argument. My JW friend also plays the "Catholic" card when arguing with me about the Trinity. ;) My Muslim friend plays it when talking about the deity of Christ. My Bhuddist friend plays it when talking about God in general. ;)

    Brian
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    The rapture-- I Thess. 4:17---------The Second Coming of Christ-- Revelation 19:11
    The resurrection of the just --I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15--The resurrection of the lost--Rev. 20:5

    The resurrection of the lost and Great White Throne Judgment will take place 1,007 years after the saints are taken to Heaven for their review before God/Judgment Seat of Christ. The 1,000 years on earth will be the Messianic Age or Kingdom Age--Rev. 20:2e, 3e, 4j, 5a, 6d, 7b. I believe there are six references to the Millennial Age, as if being told once was not enough. Zechariah 14 also is a picture perfect view of the 1,000 year reign of Christ from His throne in Jerusalem.

    You question was in effect, 'Why must these two judgments be separated and at different periods of time?'

    True God has forever been in eternity in Heaven and will forever reign in His created universe, but the Lord is stepping into time and dealing with the likes of us. He has a predestined agenda of events and judgments that must happen according to His plan and schedule--in that which we call time.

    I'm going to Log Off for tonight.
     
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Uh, Ray, are you sure you want to use the word "predestined"?

    Oops, I'm sorry. Wrong section. We're covering words like that in the Calvinism/Arminianism Debate section. [​IMG]

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
  13. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Ray, I understand what the pretrib/premill view is. Reiterating it does not add anything to the discussion. Several times I have pointed out that verses like 1 Thess 4:17 talk about *an event*, not *the timing* of the event. Why do you read *timing* into these passages, instead of letting them simply say what they say? Why disconnect a passage from other passages based on something that isn't even *in* the passage?

    I don't know of any amiller that would disagree with those statements. Again, we are discussing the *timing* of when the "1000 years" start, not the fact of the "1000 years".

    I'd still like you to respond to Rev 11:18, which says the time for judging both the "saints" (2 Cor 5:10) and "the dead" (Rev 20:13) happens after the 7th trumpet.

    God bless,
    Brian
     
  14. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    Well said, BrianT.
     
  15. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    Is there a verse which teaches this?

    How could we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not not have the Spirit dwelling in us? "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).

    Note that the Bible shows neither the judgment nor the marriage of the church nor the marriage supper as happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven. After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:17, Isaiah 25:5-9).

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Revelation eleven utilizes a parenthesis as it breaks into the Great Tribulation time and in particular the latter 3 ½ years of this unthinkable period of time in the future. Throughout all of the various judgments John merely expresses the kinds of judgments that will happen. But in this eleventh chapter we see different things going on both on the earth and in Heaven.

    At the beginning we see the measuring of the Temple. Then God speaking through the writings of John informs us of two witnesses that will appear in Jerusalem to preach the truths of the Word of God. I, along with many teachers, believe these two men will be Elijah and Enoch. They will prophecy/preach ‘1,260 days' approximately 3 ½ years. Almighty God will protect them until their message has been heard by everyone. {vs. 5} Their God given spiritual powers are noted in verse six.

    In verse 7-8 the antichrist will finally kill them, but through God's decretive will. Three and one half days their bodies will lie in the street in Jerusalem. Verse twelve tells us that they will ascend into Heaven.

    In verse 13 there is an earthquake in Jerusalem and 7,000 people will die. This is also confirmed in the O.T. passage of Zachaiah 14:4 also speaking about this earthquake in Jerusalem. All nations will surround Israel at this time; some will stand with Israel and the Muslim nations and others will destroy the cities in Israel. {Zechariah 14:2a}

    In Revelation 11:14 & 15 we have a changed picture with more woes coming.

    In verse 16 John notices a view within Heaven where the Elders are worshiping Jesus.

    Here is the part where you were asking about. Verses 18-19 relate the fact that the nations will be angry but Almighty God will bring even greater wrath on this world. Then John says, ‘ . . . and the time of the dead, that they should be judged . . . ' He is talking about the fact that all who die outside of Christ will be judged and placed in Hell. Just as when a Christian dies that person goes directly to Heaven, so too when all sinners die they go immediately into destruction/Hell. This is not the Great White Throne judgment that will come after the 1,000 years of Christ's reign on the earth.

    Now to pick up on the last phrase of verse 18. ‘ . . . and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and those who fear Thy Name, small and great; and shouldest destroy those which destroy the earth.'

    Who are the prophets that will be rewarded? Elijah and Enoch plus the 144,000 witnesses [Rev. 7:3-8] who will also be Jewish/Israelites who will make a stand for Christ and will proclaim the message that the Lord wants delivered. They will pay with the loss of their lives.

    And John says, ‘ . . . and to the saints . . . ' These saints will go to their reward in Heaven [Rev. 7:9-10] and to their earned rewards because of their faithfulness unto death/martyrdom. Note
    [Rev. 2:10 d,e,and f]

    And finally we move in Revelation 11:19 to a scene that John sees in Heaven.

    Your verse in Rev. 11:18 cannot be construed as being a kind of one time final judgment day where He adjudicates both the saints and the wicked. It's a little like O.J.'s glove--it doesn't fit; And if it doesn't fit--‘You must acquit.'

    In other words, after the rapture and Judgment Seat of Christ there will still be valued saints to the Lord, who will be received into Heaven via martyrdom. After the rapture obviously there will be a world full of people who will ‘die and be judged' {Rev. 11:18b,c} by the Lord and will be expedited to the gates of Hell only to see the raging flames of an endless place of destruction.

    Revelation is a parenthetical passage dealing with many issues. The Apostle John targets different and yet very important truths that we are responsible to know and to teach other people.
     
  17. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Ray, there is much in your post that I don't think I'm fully understanding what you are saying, but for now I just want to focus on a couple things:

    - are you saying Rev 11:18 is NOT after the 7th trumpet?
    - why do you think this is a general, non-specific mention of judgment, when it specifically says "and the time of the dead, that they should be judged"?
    - are you saying that the righteous go through one judgment, and the unrighteous go through *two*? Just how many final judgments does the pretrib view require???
    - what, *from the text*, causes you to draw this conclusion?

    Are you serious? There are pretrib cross-references with a WAY worse "fit", yet they are paraded around like the gospel truth. ;)
     
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    The Seal Judgments of the Great Tribulation start in Rev. 6:1. The Trumpet Judgments of the same mentioned Tribulation start in Rev. 8:1. What I am saying is that we are well into the Great Tribulation when we get into the Trumpet Judgments. The sixth Trumpet Judgment is in Rev. 9:13. The seventh Trumpet Judgment takes place in Rev. 10:7. Your reference to Rev. 11:18 takes place during the seventh Trumpet Judgment.

    The rapture and general resurrection of the saved will be already history at this point in time, and the general resurrection of the wicked will be after the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of Christ on the earth.

    What I am saying is that all of those who do not die as martyrs during the Great Tribulation will of necessity die and go to Hell. Thus, in Rev. 11:18 we have the words, ‘ And the nations were angry and Thy wrath i come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged . . . ' Those who take the mark of the beast will at their death be judged by the Lord as worthy of destruction/Hell. On the other hand, the martyrs who stand for Christ during this horrendous time will be these people who God says, ‘{I} will give reward unto Thy servants, and those who fear Thy name, small and great . . . ' These people will be judged just as He judges people who die in Christ and also those who die outside of His grace. There is no mystery as to understanding this eleventh chapter. As I said before this passage is a parenthesis picturing things on the earth as well as in Heaven.

    In conclusion, in paragraph number two you have the two, unique resurrections from their graves.

    The larger paragraph, number three explains how God deals with those who die physically during this unprecedented, Great Tribulation on the earth.

    There is no one general resurrection of the dead in a final day of His Judgment Day.

    All references to the Last Day are in relation to the redeemed people of God from all ages of time. We have to keep in mind that the Bible, God's holy Word, was written for the most part to the church for direction and council. He loves we and all people who ever were or shall be the people of God and we will be with Him forever to the praise of His glory. He does, nevertheless, give us warning as to how He has dealt with those who refuse or neglect His proffer of grace under the Old Covenant, under the New Covenant, during the Great Tribulation and also even during the Millenimum. Note Zechariah 14:12, 15, 18, and 19. Even during the Millenimum there will be people who will rebel against His Theocracy ruled and ministered from Jerusalem, Israel. These people at their death will be placed in Hell until the general resurrection of the wicked as noted in Revelation 20:5 as ‘ . . . the rest of the dead.' They did not live ‘ . . . again until the thousand years were finished.' Then there will be the Great White Throne Judgment as documented in the same chapter in verse eleven.

    Then the last of what we understand in the Bible as the New Heaven and the New Earth and eternity with Him to offer continual praise to His most holy Name and Person.
     
  19. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    Where does Revelation say the seals and trumpets are "judgments?" I believe God's judgment doesn't come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and none of them are directed at us Christians.

    Which verse says our rapture and resurrection (and the Judgment Seat of Christ) is pretrib?

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    The Seal Judgments, the Trumpet Judgments and the Vial Judgments are all judgments of God against those who refused His Person and grace. (Postrib) Do these events sound to you like 'a walk in the park' or 'a cake walk?' These judgments certainly were not a 'reward' offered by God because of their sinful lifestyle. Even as early as Revelation chapter six we find the 'stars falling to the earth' [vs.13]. Do you know of multiple asteroids coming into our atmosphere and crashing into the earth?

    This is clearly a future event.
     
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