A question about Messianic Jews.

Hi again Thinkingstuff,

In chapter 18 this Babylon is the habitation of demons and unclean spirits. In addition "sorceries" were committed in/by this city of Babylon, while perhaps not a formal and organized religion (apart from Wicca) is a form of demon worship.

The point is that there is a demonic component of this "city" which from its beginning even as a geographical place in what is now Iran was oppossed to the proper worship of God.

IMO, this is the evil principality which is to be manifested just before the Day of Lord. The geographical location is of secondary consequence as the word chosen is one of imagery: "BABYLON", which in its literal beginning and foundation by Nimrod came from "bab-el" or the Gate to God arrogantly built with human hands (or attempted) and soon confounded by God.

This Babylon, with a literal beginning has a far reaching prophetic significance (in it "religious" component), salvation via the works of mens hands, the doctrine of devils.

Though cultism, heresy and error looks disorganized, beneath the chaotic surface is a well-defined "principality".

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

Whose leader is satan and/or antichrist.​

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Soon, it will be fully manifested (though it has been working from the beginning).​

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.​

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.​

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

To focus on geography is to miss the more important spiritual points IMO.

True, it may (probably will) have a geographical center, Maybe Rome, maybe Jerusalem, maybe New York City...

HankD

 

I think you are mistaking clear SYMBOLIC language for LITERAL description of a Literal city. Consider its counter part in Revelation 21. How could a LITERAL city have the 12 apostles as its foundation?

Babel was the first attempt by men to assert false RELIGION against the "way of the Lord." Relgious confusion began with Babel and it was institutionalized and organized by Babylonial Mysticism.

Rome was the PRESENT center of this Babylonian institutionalized religion and Ceasar was the eptimony of the "god/man" rebellion against Christ. John was on the island of Patmos for no doubt refusing to offer up a pinch of incense while claiming "Ceaser is Lord."

Rome was the PRESENT center where Babylonian religion reigned over the kings of the earth with Ceasar as the proclaimed "god/man."

Rome would be the future place of MARRIAGE between Babylonian religion and apostate Christianity.

Rome would be the future place where all other prostitute Christian secular state unions would originate (Reformed Roman Catholicism).

 

It is called "mystery babylon" which is a direct religious inference as Babylon was famous for its mystery religions. To argue this is simply a "secular" city is simply ignoring that name. They symbolism of the cup and wine speaks of a religious influence. Fornciation is not literal as no literal city can commit literal fornication. It is talking about a UNION or MARRIAGE between State and relgion - babylonian relgion.

Roman Catholicism will later be centered at Rome. It is a hybrid of Babylonian and Christian religion. Alexander Hislops book "Two Babylon's" which is footenoted to the hilt has never been refuted.

Secular Roman government was superseded by Roman Catholic Government when Rome was destroyed in the fifth century, thus healed of wound, and will be here until ten kings join together with the beast in that final "hour" wherein she will be destroyed and they will fight the King of kings and Lord of lords at the Second advent (Rev. 17:15-17).

This can't be secular Jerualem as it did not reign over the kings at the time John wrote. It can't be secular Rome as she was destroyed in the fifth century but the conqueror of Rome as well as the Roman empire was taken over by Roman Catholicism.

 

But he is not alone in his misunderstanding Thinkingstuff. I agree with much of what he says.

We all understand the word but since Revelation is a book which is "signified" (a book of "signs") we disagree on the details which is quite different than misunderstanding.

For sure, we all know that this world system is no friend to God and vice versa.

I think we are down to quibbling.

Nonetheless, much of the imagery and symbolism of Revelation is derived from the practice and symbols of the helenistic mystery cults which actually originated with Nimrod (founder of Babylon) and Semiramis his mother.

It doesn't hurt to study secular history to understand the symbolism of "MYSTERY BABYLON".

e.g. The golden cup is a symbol of a concoction of psychotropic (hallucinogenic) plants called "kykeon" used as a kind of sacrament by mystery cultists thus the word "pharmakeia" is used of their "sorceries".

Do a google on "kykeon". The major ingredient was probably ergot (a grain fungus), from which LSA and LSD are derived. Today's culture is a becoming a drug culture directly the product of these ancient "sorceries".

Elements of the helenistic "mystery religions" are present with us today in fraternal societies. mormonism and other "secret" societies.

The Eleusinian mystery cults were about 1000 years old at the time of Christ. Paul did battle with them (Diana of the Ephesians) as he went through Asia Minor preaching.

The strategy was absorption and soon enough Christianity became its target.

The cult was supposedly defeated by AD400. Actually it went "underground".

And IMO, soon to be resurrected and its leader fully manifested before the coming of Day of the Lord (who will destroy him, the man of sin, the antichrist).

HankD

 

The law was a shadow of good things the come, the things Christ was to bring in. This is crucial to understand what the law was and why it was given. There is a spiritual application of every one of the 10 commandments that goes beyond the letter. The Jews wanted to keep the letter, but violated the spirit. Many today want the letter, but not the spirit. Jesus showed us how to read the law in Matthew 5.

The commandments tell us not to commit adultery. Well, I've never physically broken that commandment, thus I've kept the letter. But Jesus said it goes beyond this. He said if we have lusted after a woman in our hearts, we have broken the spirit of it. I'm guilty of this, no matter my efforts to keep it. The commandment of the sabbath is no different. There is a spiritual application there many miss.

The sabbath rest was a picture of something. And first, let's be clear about the sabbath. The Jews weren't only to rest on the sabbath, they were to let the land rest on the sabbath of years, or every 7th year. They weren't to plant crops on the 7th year. Then after 49 years, or the sabbath of sabbath land rest (7 times 7 years), the year of jubilee came. Furthermore, certain days during the year, like the 15th and 21st of Nisan or Abib, were treated as if they were 7th day sabbaths. Are you going to keep all of these things? Nope, instead people will pick what they want, and they only want the 7th day sabbath.

Now, the sabbath rest, whether on the 7th day, a special day of holy convocation, the 7th year, or the year of jubilee, was a picture of something. It was typical of the gospel rest we now have in Christ. This is explained in Hebrews 3 and 4. God rested on the 7th day from a particular labor, that of creation. That was because He was finished. Christ is now seated at the right of God, resting from His labor of redemption, because He finished it. He gave one sacrifice and then sat down. God didn't quit working altogether when He finished creation or redemption, but He did rest from those particular labors. You and I are to rest now in Christ in a sense, that being from the labor of trying to get ourselves to heaven. We are to trust in Him, come to Him, lay our burdens at His feet and take up His yoke which is easy and light, and He will give us something - rest. This is sabbath rest. That doesn't mean we aren't to do things, we still have work to do. We are to labor in His vineyard, keep His commandments, etc. But we are to rest from any labor of trying to save ourselves to heaven and rest in Him.

 

Yes, I understand your point and agree as far as you have taken it.

However, the beast whom the woman rides is mentioned in several chapters of revelation as the object of worship.

e.g.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

While this does not definitively speak of a "religion", worship is the essence of any religion.​

Granted this "city" will probably have a geographical location but the objective of the woman is for all to receive the mark of the beast and worship his image.​

I also agree that the sociological scope of this "city" is all encompassing of economics, politics, culture, etc and not just religion.​

It's modern charter, perhaps to become its foundational document is the Humanist Manifesto http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_Are/About_Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_II​

which encompasses religion:​

The woman is spoken of as sitting upon the beast which implies a colaboration. However at the end of Revelation 17 the beast destroys the woman. She has served her purpose and is contemptously discarded.​

This is the satanic mission: the overthrow of God and the worship of the devil no matter the cost.​

Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.​

The harlot (at first), the beast and the false prophet have this common mission objective.​

Personally I see it as satan's city-state with his worship as the only authorized religion (at the cost of beheading) just before the Second Coming (which is not the "rapture" where the children of God are taken out of harm's way of the wrath of man, the wrath of satan and finally the wrath of Almighty God - Revelation 19:15).​

Finally, this "city" (as I have tried to show as an opinion derived from Scripture) has its organic roots from the orginal "Babel", the Babylon of Nimrod, a type of antichrist.​

I am not saying you are wrong Thinkingstuff, just encouraging you to expand your thinking.​

Thank you for the good debate.​

HankD​