A Question for Arminians (or no-name theology believers)

So when the Scriptures say that sin brings forth death (James 1:15), it isn't saying that men are made dead? That sin just brought death and it's only effectual if men meet certain conditions? Or that when it says the clouds bring rain (Prov. 16:15, RSV) that there really is no water until men do a little rain dance?

This is the kind of tedium that makes many good men simply abandon their attempts at interaction with you. These men think that your problem is a simple misunderstanding, that reason and rational discourse will turn you from the error of your ways. What they don't count on is your disingenuine redefinition of words and the absolute disregard of the normal and customary usage of the parts of speech. But I am not a good man, and I don't think you are genuine. I know and quite expect that if it served your purposes, you would argue that "recover" means "to cover again" and "unloosen" means "to tighten." But I'm willing to take it on just for the fun of it. That, and for the edification of Calvinists.

I know that when you read James 1:15, you see "sin, when it is finished, makes a man dead." And when you read Proverbs 16:15 in the RSV, you know that clouds bringing rain means it rains despite any will or purpose of your own.

So you have a tough time arguing that when the Scriptures say that the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men, that it isn't saying all men are made alive.

But this is where the law comes in to explain it. The Levites received tithes of all the other tribes, but to whom did the Levites pay tithes to? They paid tithes to Melchizedek, the Priest of the Most High God. How? Through Abraham. Levi was yet in the loins of Abraham when he paid tithes to Melchizedek (Heb. 7:9-10)

And so, "all men" who were in Adam died when Adam sinned, for we were in Adam's loins when he sinned. In the same way, "all men" who were in the Second Adam when He acted righteously, are made alive.

That is what is being said in Romans 5.

 

Notice that I didn't say that you aren't an airhead. I merely mimicked your style in my reply. An unadvised act, I'll warrant, but there it is.

 

In response to Aaron in post #168, Ezekiel 18 refutes your view.

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The Jews actually believed as you, that sin is passed down, if the father ate a sour grape, his son's teeth were set on edge. And God says this is false, but every man dies for his own sin. And this is further confirmed in vs. 20.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. THE SON SHALL NOT BEAR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be UPON HIM, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be UPON HIM.

So, you take a verse that is not even speaking of sin to teach that sin is inherited from our father, when God clearly and plainly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father.

Your view is error.

 

Hmm, that was a rather long interuption. But I fit supper and choir practice into the break so all is good. Back to the discussion. All quotes are still from GLFrederick's posts 114 and 115 on page 12 of this thread:

"Feels like" and "seemed"? Wasn't it you who told me I needed to move past the emotions of the issue? (just kidding)

Seriously now, either you made the decision to believe or you are still unsaved. The scriptures say "believe and be saved", they don't say "wait until God gives you the ability to believe and then believe and be saved". While I won't deny that God is able to accomplish His will in spite of man, but that does mean that He imposes His will on any.

How did I suggest that?

Anyhow, do you not limit what Christ accomplished by saying it only applies to those few that God has arbitrarily chosen? "Oh, well Christ didn't have enough to sacrifice to be suffecient for the whole entirity of humanity so He only accomplished the salvation of the select elect few". That, my friend is what edges on blasphemy.

LOL, are you SURE you are a Calvinist??? Of course those who believe are the elect, us free willers have been saying this for years.

Ah, here's the rub. You seem to see no difference in attonement provided and attonement made/applied. ( maybe you are a Calvinist after all)

I agree. God could have and apparently did set up the mechinism for salvation before man was created and therefore before Adam ever considered disobeying that one little rule that God gave him.

We don't have to will "righteousness" we only have to will belief. We are made righteous after salvation by the effects of attonement.

I agree (for i am not Arminian) that we cannot return to our lost state once we are saved, for the exact reason you have stated and also because if we are "made a new creature and the old is passed away" then the state of "being lost" is no longer available.

More tomorrow....have a nice night!

 

*sigh*

Did Levi pay tithes in Abraham or not?